Salsa Cycles Fargo Page

Saturday, October 14, 2023

Two Things

Canyon Grail v2 (Image courtesy of Canyon)
 Canyon Announces V2 of the Grail Gravel Bike:

Canyon Bikes announced the second version of their Grail gravel bike recently. Stating that they had spent hours and hours testing a prototype with adjustable geometry and with race feedback from Pro level gravel racers, they had arrived at the perfect geometry for a gravel bike. 

They needn't have gone to all that trouble though. These things were figured out many decades ago. I wrote a series (which that link is one entry of four in that series) about gravel bike geometry and why things have come to be the way that they are now. Again- these geometry issues have all been thoroughly vetted out and tested. Years and years ago. 

But Canyon did their research and ended up with geometry which is nearly identical to my 2014 Raleigh Tamland Two which was inspired by, you guessed it, geometry from the early 20th Century. I find it not so much a silly thing that we keep hitting on similar things in terms of geometry for gravel/all-road bikes, but I think it is more a validation of those ideas which early bicycle designers found which worked. Yes, the materials have changed, the way we utilize technology has changed, but the basics really have not changed. What makes a bike handle well on rough roads? It seems to be a generally accepted idea that something along the lines of a Tamland Two and a Canyon Grail is where the target is for good geometry.

Now, as for aero, features, and weight, yes- the new Grail is light years better.  I like the integrated storage, the neat frame bag, and Canyon says that bag makes the bike more aero. Cool! That's some good thinking there. Tire size is limited out at 42mm, which is probably a bit tight for many folks, but this is right at where I think most people are wanting to be in terms of tires. Racers especially aren't going to run much bigger tires typically than that.

Yes- the Grail is expensive, but what carbon flagship gravel bike isn't? I don't like to see the prices escalate as that is just another barrier to entry to a sport that needs less stuff like this and more 'not-so-sexy', halo-ish product. But racers are going to want something like this, and I think that overall, the Canyon Grail looks pretty spot-on. 

Gravel Mutt v3: Return Of The Gravel Mutt:

Some years ago now I put together two bicycles from older Trek models to demonstrate the way many riders used to cobble together a bicycle for gravel travel before the advent of "gravel specific" bikes and gear. I used a Trek 720 and an old "barn-built" Trek from 1978. 

Neither were what I would be able to put up with for long and the experiments were both short-lived. The biggest issue I had were the too-high bottom brackets, especially on the 720, which surprised me. You'd think a touring bike would have a deep bottom bracket, but apparently Trek didn't see things that way. 

The older Trek was somewhat better, but there was something weird with the layout of that bike which put your weight way out over the front of the bike. That was a deal-killer. Both Treks went to the scrap heap as a result.

I've been on the lookout for a suitable replacement for those bikes and an old Raleigh I used as a fixed gear bike. Since I have been at the Collective, several near-misses have come and gone as donations there, but none have been close enough for me to take seriously as a project, until now, that is. 

What is really cool is that this bike is a bit of an outlier in terms of its geometry and what it is capable of in terms of gravel set up. I found an old catalog scan which confirmed my quick measurements of the geometry. I decided it was worthwhile and so this bike is nearly done now and it will be ready to show soon. 

In terms of my discussion of the Canyon above, I think we will see this "gravel mutt" is another example of a hold-over from an earlier time in terms of geometry and capabilities. A bike that will point to how the Canyon's geometry isn't anything all that new. 

Stay tuned....

5 comments:

  1. With all due respect, I think that you missed one key part of the Grail's geometry puzzle entirely and focused instead on only the head angle and fork offset portion of its geometry. Specifically, this bike differs substantially from the likes of the Tamland in its long top tube, with the accompanying expectation of combining that with a short stem - its "progressive geometry", as the kids might say.

    For example, size L of the Grail has an identical stack measurement to the 60cm Tamland (61.3cm), but its reach is a whopping 3cm longer (42.7cm versus 39.7cm), with a correspondingly longer front centre. That makes a vast difference to the weight distribution and handling on a loose, technical descent.

    ReplyDelete
  2. @Fear rothar - Reach is but one measurement. The whole enchilada needs to be examined. While it is true, the Grail has a longer reach than my Tamland. Size for size the wheelbases are within a few millimeters of each other. (Based upon my measurement of my personal Tamland vs the size Grail I would ride.) Given that I'd need a shorter stem on the Grail, how then is my weight distribution "vastly different"?

    Also, we have not taken into account stack height, how many spacers I would use on a Grail vs my Tamland, and seat post offset as well.

    So, you can do a lot with weight distribution with all of that, right?

    Let's say I set everything up to put me on the bikes as similarly as possible. Wheelbases are nearly identical. I don't see weight distribution being all that different.

    And as far as "longer top tubes" with shorter stems go, I have experience with a bike I designed that has 20mm more reach than the Grail and I used a 50mm stem on that bike for a while. So, I get where you are coming from.

    All that said, I stand by my points in the post until convinced otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "The whole enchilada needs to be examined." That was my point exactly.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "Size for size". How would you go about choosing what size Grail to ride?

    For the sizes of Grail and Tamland I would choose, I would end up with the front centre measurement differences - and, hence, the front centre and weight distribution differences - I mentioned in my previous post.

    ReplyDelete
  4. @Fear rothar. Again, I'm not convinced that my take is wrong. You can agree to disagree. I'm perfectly fine with that.

    ReplyDelete
  5. @GT - I’m more interested in the shades of grey than the idea of right or wrong in this context. To that end, I’ll repeat my question in a little more detail. What sizes of Tamland and Grail are you comparing and what is your rationale behind the size of Grail you chose?

    ReplyDelete