Soft-Tail Design And Gravel: A Match Made In Heaven?

From Ritchey's Twitter feed last Wednesday.

I came across a Tweet from Ritchey-Official last Wednesday. Apparently some Italian folks got a hold of an old Ritchey soft-tail MTB and turned it into a gravel bike. 

The soft-tail design, where chain stays are relied upon for some flex and a small, very short travel damper is placed between the seat stays and the seat tube, is nothing new. The idea has been banging around on mountain bikes since the 1980's, and earlier design patents show that the idea was at least around in the late 19th Century. However; you do not see many of these bikesout and about.

Perhaps that is because the modern soft-tail was always aimed at being a solution for XC mountain biking. The trouble was that typically the travel/damping was not very effective and the design introduced other problems like flex, stress breakage to the chain stays, and difficulties making the design work for smaller sized riders. 

That said, Moots has been making their "YBB" soft tail design for years, and Ritchey and Salsa Cycles made some well known versions of this design over the years as well. That said, it just hasn't really ever been a great mountain bike solution for most riders. This kept sales low, and in some cases, the bikes went away due to design faults and low sales numbers.

My Salsa Cycles Dos Niner at the 2010 DK200

I've tried a soft tail design before in "real" mountain biking situations and for gravel riding. In my experience, the idea seemed to be far more at home on gravel versus the mountains. That said, the soft-tail generally is not designed to mitigate vibrations as much as it is designed to "take the edge off" trail obstacles when the rear tire hits them. 

There is a big difference there. I feel as though the soft-tail design has merit for gravel travel, it is just that no one has really hit the nail on the head with regard to using the idea to mitigate vibrations and not be a "suspension" platform. 

Sure, Moots, as mentioned, does a Routt YBB gravel bike, and BMC has their URS 1. Trek integrated their ISO Speed rear damping design into their Checkpoint bikes. So, there are examples of the idea out there for gravel. It's just that there aren't many choices that don't cost an arm and a leg, so many riders would never benefit from this idea.

And as well, one could counter with the idea of a suspension seat post, which could go into any frame, and is transferable, bike-to-bike. Obviously, such devices cost a lot less as well and have similar, if not the same results in ride feel for the rider. 

One could argue that a suspension seat post turns any bike into a soft-tail.

And if the idea is to protect the rider from vibrations, a suspension seat post is perhaps the better solution here. It doesn't matter if the rider stands up or not, because we only are concerned about vibration reductions at the saddle if the rider is seated. We are not looking for better wheel traction. Plus the design doesn't require expensive frames, and it doesn't over-stress chain stays, which are often the weak point in soft-tail design.

So, is a soft-tail design not a good idea? I wouldn't dismiss this design idea out of hand. If done elegantly and with rider vibration reduction in mind, it makes sense for gravel riding. I don't think "travel" at the rear wheel is what gravel riders necessarily need here, so over-stressing chain stays needn't happen either. 

But yes- Obviously a suspension seat post, or even a rigid post designed to mitigate vibrations, is a much more elegant, less expensive, and non-proprietary way to go. Either way, I think riders could benefit from the designs. 

Maybe I should build up that Dos Niner again and test out my theories.....

Soft-Tail Design And Gravel: A Match Made In Heaven?

From Ritchey's Twitter feed last Wednesday.

I came across a Tweet from Ritchey-Official last Wednesday. Apparently some Italian folks got a hold of an old Ritchey soft-tail MTB and turned it into a gravel bike. 

The soft-tail design, where chain stays are relied upon for some flex and a small, very short travel damper is placed between the seat stays and the seat tube, is nothing new. The idea has been banging around on mountain bikes since the 1980's, and earlier design patents show that the idea was at least around in the late 19th Century. However; you do not see many of these bikesout and about.

Perhaps that is because the modern soft-tail was always aimed at being a solution for XC mountain biking. The trouble was that typically the travel/damping was not very effective and the design introduced other problems like flex, stress breakage to the chain stays, and difficulties making the design work for smaller sized riders. 

That said, Moots has been making their "YBB" soft tail design for years, and Ritchey and Salsa Cycles made some well known versions of this design over the years as well. That said, it just hasn't really ever been a great mountain bike solution for most riders. This kept sales low, and in some cases, the bikes went away due to design faults and low sales numbers.

My Salsa Cycles Dos Niner at the 2010 DK200

I've tried a soft tail design before in "real" mountain biking situations and for gravel riding. In my experience, the idea seemed to be far more at home on gravel versus the mountains. That said, the soft-tail generally is not designed to mitigate vibrations as much as it is designed to "take the edge off" trail obstacles when the rear tire hits them. 

There is a big difference there. I feel as though the soft-tail design has merit for gravel travel, it is just that no one has really hit the nail on the head with regard to using the idea to mitigate vibrations and not be a "suspension" platform. 

Sure, Moots, as mentioned, does a Routt YBB gravel bike, and BMC has their URS 1. Trek integrated their ISO Speed rear damping design into their Checkpoint bikes. So, there are examples of the idea out there for gravel. It's just that there aren't many choices that don't cost an arm and a leg, so many riders would never benefit from this idea.

And as well, one could counter with the idea of a suspension seat post, which could go into any frame, and is transferable, bike-to-bike. Obviously, such devices cost a lot less as well and have similar, if not the same results in ride feel for the rider. 

One could argue that a suspension seat post turns any bike into a soft-tail.

And if the idea is to protect the rider from vibrations, a suspension seat post is perhaps the better solution here. It doesn't matter if the rider stands up or not, because we only are concerned about vibration reductions at the saddle if the rider is seated. We are not looking for better wheel traction. Plus the design doesn't require expensive frames, and it doesn't over-stress chain stays, which are often the weak point in soft-tail design.

So, is a soft-tail design not a good idea? I wouldn't dismiss this design idea out of hand. If done elegantly and with rider vibration reduction in mind, it makes sense for gravel riding. I don't think "travel" at the rear wheel is what gravel riders necessarily need here, so over-stressing chain stays needn't happen either. 

But yes- Obviously a suspension seat post, or even a rigid post designed to mitigate vibrations, is a much more elegant, less expensive, and non-proprietary way to go. Either way, I think riders could benefit from the designs. 

Maybe I should build up that Dos Niner again and test out my theories.....

Friday News And Views

Iowa Gravel Expo- Pop Up Series: 

Over the last two years N.Y. Roll and I have put on an "Iowa Gravel Expo/Bike Party" which was a one day event. I covered recently how this was going to change and turn into a series. Well, we have details now to share. 

This time we have a sponsor and venue in Second State Brewing Company. We also have another sponsor in Andy's Bike Shop. The series will have four dates- two in January and two in February, so hopefully a lot of the area gravel grinders can attend at least one of these- or all if you are so inclined. Here are the dates, which are all Wednesday evenings starting at 6:30pm at Second State Brewing Co.

• January 8th
• Januray 22nd
• February 5th
• February 19th
• Facebook Page Link For Events 

Each session should last an hour-ish or a little longer. We are also inviting Iowa gravel event promoters to come and speak at these since one of our aims is to promote Iowa gravel events. In lieu of promoters, should we get an evening where we do not have any, or weather prevents them from attending, we will do a short presentation for selected events on our own.

Specific gravel related topics: N.Y. Roll and I will also serve up tips and recommendations on various gravel related subjects during each session. The plan is to make each session unique, so you may want to attend several of these. The main point we have is to celebrate Iowa gravel events, and as a community of riders, just get together and have a good time through a part of the year that is typically when we aren't out there doing what we really like to do.

So, if you have any questions, comments, or concerns about these events, please comment here, or go to the Facebook page, (Link in red above) and leave us a comment there. Thanks! We hope to rub elbows with a lot of you this Winter.

Patent application drawings for Lauf's rear sus ideas.

Lauf Working On Rear Suspension For Gravel:

A recent "Bike Radar" article revealed that Lauf, famous for its leaf sprung, backwards looking forks, is working on an idea for rear suspension using leaf springs.

Comments: Showing three different ideas, it is clear that Lauf is still in the development stages of this idea, but it bears watching, as the gravel segment of cycling is still heating up, and is one of the only bright spots in the sport now. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something fast-tracked to prototype stage to be shown at various gravel events in 2020.

To my way of thinking, the idea that Lauf is pursuing is much more acceptable than where Niner Bikes went by using more "traditional" telescopic suspension with the complex rear linkage system. Minimal amounts of suspension travel, in this case less than 80mm, lends itself to more simplistic designs, and when executed correctly, it can be a superior riding experience.

This Lauf idea is very intriguing. In my opinion, the direct competitors to Lauf will be those that use suspension seat post designs. While what Lauf is doing will be activated anytime a rider in on the bike and moving, where a suspension seat post is not, (only works while seated), the Lauf idea has some concerning limitations. For instance, how do you account for differing rider weights and styles? The design has to work similarly across a wide size range. That's not going to be easy to pull off. Plus, it cannot infringe upon anyone else's patents, a definite limitation.

Those are not insurmountable obstacles, but I have to wonder, why didn't Lauf apply what they are doing with the fork on the rear of the bike? Yes- it wouldn't look traditional. But that didn't stop them from making the ugliest fork in the road bike market. So.....?? Anyway, this will be interesting to follow.

Add caption

End Of Year Changes:

Next month brings a close to 2019, and obviously I have been doing a lot of thinking about that and how it relates to what I do here and professionally. I kind of do this every year- I take stock of where I've been and where I want to go with this. First of all- Thank you all- each and every one of you, for reading this stuff I put out. I could never thank you all enough.

Secondly- This blog will continue, so no worries there. 

With that out of the way, I think 2020 will be a great year to do a few things differently. It will mark a new era, as I will have closed out 15 years of blogging in May of 2020. So, I want to do a little celebration of that.

Part of that will include a change to one of the longest running series on the blog. The "Minus Ten Review", which covers the happenings here from ten years previous, will change slightly. Part of the intentions there were that I wanted to document, in a weekly fashion, what I did to develop the blog. However; that morphed into me riffing on a theme and telling stories. Many times this did not have anything at all to do with ten years ago.

Since I feel I have gone over the beginnings of the blog, covering the initial four years here, I thought that maybe it was time to just admit that I want to tell stories based upon things I've done over the past 15 years here and riff on that. So, the "Minus Ten Review" will morph into something else. Something based on the 15 year idea. I've got a pot full of themes here and some deserve some refreshing, retelling, and expounding upon. So, look for that idea to start up next January.

Other than that, the blog will pretty much remain the same. I think you'll notice some new twists though. There are plans on the horizon for multi-media connections. I may have my own, "Guitar Ted-centric" podcast dealing with the blog stuff. Maybe even video. I will definitely be doing more on the podcast/video/live stream side in connection with something new I will be involved in for 2020. That's exciting for me on several levels. I cannot wait to release this news.

There will also be some major changes professionally. Things ending. Things beginning. I cannot say anything more than this right now, but a clearer pathway into 2020 is forming now and I am pretty happy about that.

Stay tuned folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride!

Friday News And Views

Iowa Gravel Expo- Pop Up Series: 

Over the last two years N.Y. Roll and I have put on an "Iowa Gravel Expo/Bike Party" which was a one day event. I covered recently how this was going to change and turn into a series. Well, we have details now to share. 

This time we have a sponsor and venue in Second State Brewing Company. We also have another sponsor in Andy's Bike Shop. The series will have four dates- two in January and two in February, so hopefully a lot of the area gravel grinders can attend at least one of these- or all if you are so inclined. Here are the dates, which are all Wednesday evenings starting at 6:30pm at Second State Brewing Co.

• January 8th
• Januray 22nd
• February 5th
• February 19th
• Facebook Page Link For Events 

Each session should last an hour-ish or a little longer. We are also inviting Iowa gravel event promoters to come and speak at these since one of our aims is to promote Iowa gravel events. In lieu of promoters, should we get an evening where we do not have any, or weather prevents them from attending, we will do a short presentation for selected events on our own.

Specific gravel related topics: N.Y. Roll and I will also serve up tips and recommendations on various gravel related subjects during each session. The plan is to make each session unique, so you may want to attend several of these. The main point we have is to celebrate Iowa gravel events, and as a community of riders, just get together and have a good time through a part of the year that is typically when we aren't out there doing what we really like to do.

So, if you have any questions, comments, or concerns about these events, please comment here, or go to the Facebook page, (Link in red above) and leave us a comment there. Thanks! We hope to rub elbows with a lot of you this Winter.

Patent application drawings for Lauf's rear sus ideas.

Lauf Working On Rear Suspension For Gravel:

A recent "Bike Radar" article revealed that Lauf, famous for its leaf sprung, backwards looking forks, is working on an idea for rear suspension using leaf springs.

Comments: Showing three different ideas, it is clear that Lauf is still in the development stages of this idea, but it bears watching, as the gravel segment of cycling is still heating up, and is one of the only bright spots in the sport now. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something fast-tracked to prototype stage to be shown at various gravel events in 2020.

To my way of thinking, the idea that Lauf is pursuing is much more acceptable than where Niner Bikes went by using more "traditional" telescopic suspension with the complex rear linkage system. Minimal amounts of suspension travel, in this case less than 80mm, lends itself to more simplistic designs, and when executed correctly, it can be a superior riding experience.

This Lauf idea is very intriguing. In my opinion, the direct competitors to Lauf will be those that use suspension seat post designs. While what Lauf is doing will be activated anytime a rider in on the bike and moving, where a suspension seat post is not, (only works while seated), the Lauf idea has some concerning limitations. For instance, how do you account for differing rider weights and styles? The design has to work similarly across a wide size range. That's not going to be easy to pull off. Plus, it cannot infringe upon anyone else's patents, a definite limitation.

Those are not insurmountable obstacles, but I have to wonder, why didn't Lauf apply what they are doing with the fork on the rear of the bike? Yes- it wouldn't look traditional. But that didn't stop them from making the ugliest fork in the road bike market. So.....?? Anyway, this will be interesting to follow.

Add caption

End Of Year Changes:

Next month brings a close to 2019, and obviously I have been doing a lot of thinking about that and how it relates to what I do here and professionally. I kind of do this every year- I take stock of where I've been and where I want to go with this. First of all- Thank you all- each and every one of you, for reading this stuff I put out. I could never thank you all enough.

Secondly- This blog will continue, so no worries there. 

With that out of the way, I think 2020 will be a great year to do a few things differently. It will mark a new era, as I will have closed out 15 years of blogging in May of 2020. So, I want to do a little celebration of that.

Part of that will include a change to one of the longest running series on the blog. The "Minus Ten Review", which covers the happenings here from ten years previous, will change slightly. Part of the intentions there were that I wanted to document, in a weekly fashion, what I did to develop the blog. However; that morphed into me riffing on a theme and telling stories. Many times this did not have anything at all to do with ten years ago.

Since I feel I have gone over the beginnings of the blog, covering the initial four years here, I thought that maybe it was time to just admit that I want to tell stories based upon things I've done over the past 15 years here and riff on that. So, the "Minus Ten Review" will morph into something else. Something based on the 15 year idea. I've got a pot full of themes here and some deserve some refreshing, retelling, and expounding upon. So, look for that idea to start up next January.

Other than that, the blog will pretty much remain the same. I think you'll notice some new twists though. There are plans on the horizon for multi-media connections. I may have my own, "Guitar Ted-centric" podcast dealing with the blog stuff. Maybe even video. I will definitely be doing more on the podcast/video/live stream side in connection with something new I will be involved in for 2020. That's exciting for me on several levels. I cannot wait to release this news.

There will also be some major changes professionally. Things ending. Things beginning. I cannot say anything more than this right now, but a clearer pathway into 2020 is forming now and I am pretty happy about that.

Stay tuned folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride!