The Curious Case Of The Vaya

The Vaya Ti: Almost....

The Salsa Cycles Vaya has been a long running choice for cyclists in Salsa's line up having debuted in 2010. However; it is one of the more curious models in their line up. It was kind of pitted as the foil to the hugely successful Fargo which preceded the Vaya in the line by a year. Here's what I wrote about the Vaya here on this blog in 2010:

"The Vaya will definitely speak to those who have found traditional geometry in touring bikes lacking for comfort. A tall head tube with the sloping top tube is going to automatically turn off a lot of road going touring aficionados. Too bad. The Vaya will offer riders a far more comfortable rider positioning in terms of multi-hour rides than any traditional touring rig. I am sure that Vaya also has other cool features, (disc brakes for one), but to my eyes, the Vaya nails the nice upright, relaxed rider position perfectly and will really be valuable on rougher roads and gravel. In fact, I would agree with what Dirty Kanza promoter, Jim Cummings has written when he opined that it was the best gravel road rig he's laid eyes on. Yeah, at least from a production bike standpoint, I think that is correct. "

 What is interesting to note is what I wrote there is pretty much what happened to the model. It was immediately embraced by the gravel road riding enthusiasts. It was the "anti-cyclo cross" choice and for good reason. The Vaya handles gravel road riding really well. It can take a pretty beefy tire, and with that and the lowered bottom bracket and slightly slacker angles, well, it was a bike that slotted right into many riders needs for a gravel going sled. My good friend, MG, had a Vaya and wrote a review of it for the old "Gravel Grinder News" site, and it became one of the most popular posts on that site. Obviously, the gravel cyclist "got it" when it came to the Vaya.

MG's 2010 Vaya. The review of this bike was one of GGN's most read posts.

Touring cyclists did turn up their nose at this bike, and casual road cyclists, (at least in our area), didn't know what to make of this bike. Many thought it was odd, just a heavy road bike, or whatever. It just never caught on, despite it being probably one of the most versatile "all-road" type bikes available. Perhaps it was ahead of its time.

Then Salsa Cycles sort of forgot about the Vaya. When it debuted in '10, it came out with the standard 1 1/8th straight steer tube, but road cycling and mountain bikes were quickly adopting the tapered steer tube by this time, yet Salsa did not update the Vaya until now. 2016 Vayas will finally get head tubes capable of accepting a tapered steer tube fork. This is puzzling, since a Vaya owner would become locked into the heavy Vaya steel fork, and would not be able to lighten up the bike with a carbon fork, which may have helped when it came to folks wanting a light touring rig that didn't weigh a lot. It certainly would have made sense for gravel road riding. Interestingly, Salsa did modify all the other steel bikes in the line up, along with the aluminum and carbon offerings to reflect modern day headset standards. It seems odd then to leave the Vaya behind, as it were.

Then there is the curious case of the Ti Vaya and the Vaya Travel. The Ti Vaya, which was a hard to get bike to begin with, was a coveted gravel racing frame set. Salsa did not carry over the frame after 2013, yet they did continue the titanium models up through the 2015 model year in other models. The Vaya instead went to a coupled, stainless steel framed bike. It was a curious choice, since stainless steel frames are super expensive but not as marketable as titanium was/is. The only really cool thing about that frame was the addition of the Alternator drop out, which was a great way to add internal hub gear drive trains, single speed a Vaya, or to use as a way to bail yourself out in case of derailleur failure.

The Vaya Travel was the only Vaya ever equipped with Alternators

Salsa then had a surprise intro of a new Vaya Ti recently, which included a head tube capable of accepting a tapered steer tube, but did not have the Alternator drop outs. Oh so close, but again......not quite there. At $2500.00 for the frame alone, it seems to me that this kind of misses the mark as well. That's custom titanium frame price territory. Hmm......

As stated, the 2016 Vaya will have the bigger head tubes, and the Titanium bike gets the carbon tapered steer tube fork, (finally!), but it may be too late now. Salsa has some stiff competition in the gravel ranks, and they themselves have introduced a full-on touring bike called Marrakesh. So.....just how does the Vaya for 2016 fit in? 

Salsa dubs the bike as thus: "The Vaya is our road adventure and light-touring bike, designed to handle any road surface, from pavement to gravel to dirt."

So it is still a sort of mish-mash bike with no central focus. Or......is it the Swiss Army Knife bike everyone that owns one says that it is? Their own description reads like every other company's gravel bike marketing spew. So, why not make this the gravel bike it was always accepted as and that Salsa doesn't have, (but it does, it just doesn't market it as such.) Take out the "light touring" aspect, and amp up the marketing side to reflect what the Vaya is good at. 

However it goes, the Vaya seems to be a very curious case in Salsa's bike line up. It is a bike that is passionately loved by its owners, but has no featured place in the Salsa story like the Fargo, El Mariachi, Mukluk, and Beargrease. Even newer models like the Cutthroat and Marrakesh have already been celebrated in their marketing as adventure bikes worthy of consideration. It makes the Vaya hard to figure out for many consumers and I know from experience it is even a hard bike to get across to some of  my fellow bike nerds.

The Curious Case Of The Vaya

The Vaya Ti: Almost....

The Salsa Cycles Vaya has been a long running choice for cyclists in Salsa's line up having debuted in 2010. However; it is one of the more curious models in their line up. It was kind of pitted as the foil to the hugely successful Fargo which preceded the Vaya in the line by a year. Here's what I wrote about the Vaya here on this blog in 2010:

"The Vaya will definitely speak to those who have found traditional geometry in touring bikes lacking for comfort. A tall head tube with the sloping top tube is going to automatically turn off a lot of road going touring aficionados. Too bad. The Vaya will offer riders a far more comfortable rider positioning in terms of multi-hour rides than any traditional touring rig. I am sure that Vaya also has other cool features, (disc brakes for one), but to my eyes, the Vaya nails the nice upright, relaxed rider position perfectly and will really be valuable on rougher roads and gravel. In fact, I would agree with what Dirty Kanza promoter, Jim Cummings has written when he opined that it was the best gravel road rig he's laid eyes on. Yeah, at least from a production bike standpoint, I think that is correct. "

 What is interesting to note is what I wrote there is pretty much what happened to the model. It was immediately embraced by the gravel road riding enthusiasts. It was the "anti-cyclo cross" choice and for good reason. The Vaya handles gravel road riding really well. It can take a pretty beefy tire, and with that and the lowered bottom bracket and slightly slacker angles, well, it was a bike that slotted right into many riders needs for a gravel going sled. My good friend, MG, had a Vaya and wrote a review of it for the old "Gravel Grinder News" site, and it became one of the most popular posts on that site. Obviously, the gravel cyclist "got it" when it came to the Vaya.

MG's 2010 Vaya. The review of this bike was one of GGN's most read posts.

Touring cyclists did turn up their nose at this bike, and casual road cyclists, (at least in our area), didn't know what to make of this bike. Many thought it was odd, just a heavy road bike, or whatever. It just never caught on, despite it being probably one of the most versatile "all-road" type bikes available. Perhaps it was ahead of its time.

Then Salsa Cycles sort of forgot about the Vaya. When it debuted in '10, it came out with the standard 1 1/8th straight steer tube, but road cycling and mountain bikes were quickly adopting the tapered steer tube by this time, yet Salsa did not update the Vaya until now. 2016 Vayas will finally get head tubes capable of accepting a tapered steer tube fork. This is puzzling, since a Vaya owner would become locked into the heavy Vaya steel fork, and would not be able to lighten up the bike with a carbon fork, which may have helped when it came to folks wanting a light touring rig that didn't weigh a lot. It certainly would have made sense for gravel road riding. Interestingly, Salsa did modify all the other steel bikes in the line up, along with the aluminum and carbon offerings to reflect modern day headset standards. It seems odd then to leave the Vaya behind, as it were.

Then there is the curious case of the Ti Vaya and the Vaya Travel. The Ti Vaya, which was a hard to get bike to begin with, was a coveted gravel racing frame set. Salsa did not carry over the frame after 2013, yet they did continue the titanium models up through the 2015 model year in other models. The Vaya instead went to a coupled, stainless steel framed bike. It was a curious choice, since stainless steel frames are super expensive but not as marketable as titanium was/is. The only really cool thing about that frame was the addition of the Alternator drop out, which was a great way to add internal hub gear drive trains, single speed a Vaya, or to use as a way to bail yourself out in case of derailleur failure.

The Vaya Travel was the only Vaya ever equipped with Alternators

Salsa then had a surprise intro of a new Vaya Ti recently, which included a head tube capable of accepting a tapered steer tube, but did not have the Alternator drop outs. Oh so close, but again......not quite there. At $2500.00 for the frame alone, it seems to me that this kind of misses the mark as well. That's custom titanium frame price territory. Hmm......

As stated, the 2016 Vaya will have the bigger head tubes, and the Titanium bike gets the carbon tapered steer tube fork, (finally!), but it may be too late now. Salsa has some stiff competition in the gravel ranks, and they themselves have introduced a full-on touring bike called Marrakesh. So.....just how does the Vaya for 2016 fit in? 

Salsa dubs the bike as thus: "The Vaya is our road adventure and light-touring bike, designed to handle any road surface, from pavement to gravel to dirt."

So it is still a sort of mish-mash bike with no central focus. Or......is it the Swiss Army Knife bike everyone that owns one says that it is? Their own description reads like every other company's gravel bike marketing spew. So, why not make this the gravel bike it was always accepted as and that Salsa doesn't have, (but it does, it just doesn't market it as such.) Take out the "light touring" aspect, and amp up the marketing side to reflect what the Vaya is good at. 

However it goes, the Vaya seems to be a very curious case in Salsa's bike line up. It is a bike that is passionately loved by its owners, but has no featured place in the Salsa story like the Fargo, El Mariachi, Mukluk, and Beargrease. Even newer models like the Cutthroat and Marrakesh have already been celebrated in their marketing as adventure bikes worthy of consideration. It makes the Vaya hard to figure out for many consumers and I know from experience it is even a hard bike to get across to some of  my fellow bike nerds.

News Season 2015: Titanium & Weirdness With Big Wheels

Wait.....what the....!! Half an elevated stay?!!

Elevating The Species:

Trek has had the Stache model in the lineup for a couple years now and while it was well received, I thought they kind of missed the boat by using too long a chain stay length when everyone else was clamoring for sub 17" stays and was getting it from other companies. I stayed away and got a Singular Buzzard instead.

Then Trek came out with a 29+ tire in late '14 dubbed the Chupacabra. Of course, they did not have a bike for it. Well, it was no secret that they would do a bike for this tire, the question was what it would be. Waiting for the frame geometry to be dialed in and for a fork to be produced specific to the design, Trek was biding their time.....until now. 

There is a lot going on here, and Trek has been doing work on this idea for three years now. The testing showed that the design needed to have shorter chain stays than the original Stache and that the then new 29+ idea was perfect for a trail hard tail design. In fact, Trek is claiming this redefines the trail hard tail. Being that the Manitou decided to jump in and do a 29+ and 27.5+ specific fork, Trek could push this idea to fruition. The fork comes in at two levels and is dubbed the "Magnum Pro" and "Magnum Comp", by the way. It takes its design cues and internal workings ideas from Manitou's previous Dorado and Mattoc forks and features the new front spacing standard of 110mm, called "Boost110". This makes for a more laterally stiff wheel which is smart. (I think they should have just gone to 135mm, but hey! Whadda I know?) Clearances for 3.25" tires on the fork, by the way.

So, 420mm stays when the through axle is pushed all the way back in the sliding drop out, (Stranglehold drop out is actually an ovalized slot type drop out that is fully enclosed.) , and it is single speed compatible. Compatible with 29, 29+, and 27.5+ type rubber, so its really versatile. Three versions, (Trek says more are coming, and I'll bet some are 27.5+), plus a frame set.

Obviously, with all the elevated this, squished seat tube that, you aren't going to run anything but a 1X system here. This is what makes a frame like this possible though, and in many ways, this is the culmination of an idea Gary Fisher and Mark Slate worked on back in 1999/2000 where Gary wanted short chain stays, longer front center, and a suspension fork, which ironically was a modded Manitou back then! Looks like things have come full circle, eh?

Stache 5 with rigid 100mmOD fork

Stache 9 with dropper post and Manitou Magnum Pro

The return of a classic gravel bike.

 Vaya Titanium v2: 

Ever since the Vaya came out in a titanium version, I have wanted one, because they make killer gravel road bikes. The geometry of these rigs is darn near perfection, and with the frame done up in smooth titanium, it makes the perfect gravel travel rig. However; the titanium Vaya was always hard to come by, even when they did make it at first, and then they switched to stainless steel with couplers. Not a bad idea, but not exactly titanium either. Plus, that steel frame came with a titanium price tag, which was vastly misunderstood by most riders. May as well buy a titanium bike, right? So, I decided to stay on the sidelines again....

Then yesterday, in a surprise announcement, Salsa Cycles comes back with a Titanium Vaya, and it has a modernized head tube, fantastic geometry again, and big tire clearances. WooHoo! But, it isn't all perfection here.

I still am not a huge fan of an adventure bike having paint on it if it is a titanium frame. Frame bags, dust, and the rough and tumble nature of gravel riding means that stuff isn't going to look good after a while. Titanium always looks good if it is bare, and maintenance of the finish is simple. I like the "purposeful" look and when you slather on the frame bags, who cares what color the tubes are?

The other thing is that while the rear drop out is replaceable, it isn't single speed compatible. While SRAM thinks we need 1X for gravel to simplify our gravel adventures, they and Salsa didn't think about what usually happens out there- rear derailleur carnage, that's what. Give me a solution to that and keep yer durned 1X gruppo and replaceable hangar to yerself! But, yeah......I am digging this new Vaya.

Deore XT 11 speed

SRAM Says 1X, Shimano Says "Whatevs!"

Shimano is killing it, in my opinion, and the new Deore XT is another step in the right direction. Offering everyone an option, and not forcing the front derailleur-less group on the masses, Shimano has come out with such a wide range gearing set up it is crazy. 3 X 11? Are you kidding me? 11-40 and 11-42 cassettes without a weird driver? Nice.

Now don't get me wrong, I like 1X stuff and I see where it makes sense, but when you deny me triple, and even double ring, crank sets, that's not cool. I rode a Deore level triple on a test bike last Fall/early Winter and it was eye opening. The cadence and momentum advantages were very evident. The shifting was super smooth, quiet, and not an issue at all. The range was spectacular. This was a 3 X 10. Imagine a wide range 11 speed cassette and a triple that was efficient in shifting performance with a bike packing set up. I mean really, when was the last time anyone blew up a front derailleur on a tour? Rear derailleurs and cassette bodies? Yeah, those get roached all the time, but you rarely hear about a front derailleur issue, only that it wouldn't shift. And Shimano has that sussed out now. The front derailleur isn't evil, (Anymore. At one time, yes- maybe), and I feel many would benefit from using them if they understood how. Because some people do not is not a reason to dumb down the drive train to 1X, but again- maybe it will make for a great entry point for non-cyclists until they learn the skills necessary to operate a triple. You know, gaining a skill set should be seen as something worth doing, not something to avoid, or made a negative.

Okay.....rant mode off!

News Season 2015: Titanium & Weirdness With Big Wheels

Wait.....what the....!! Half an elevated stay?!!

Elevating The Species:

Trek has had the Stache model in the lineup for a couple years now and while it was well received, I thought they kind of missed the boat by using too long a chain stay length when everyone else was clamoring for sub 17" stays and was getting it from other companies. I stayed away and got a Singular Buzzard instead.

Then Trek came out with a 29+ tire in late '14 dubbed the Chupacabra. Of course, they did not have a bike for it. Well, it was no secret that they would do a bike for this tire, the question was what it would be. Waiting for the frame geometry to be dialed in and for a fork to be produced specific to the design, Trek was biding their time.....until now. 

There is a lot going on here, and Trek has been doing work on this idea for three years now. The testing showed that the design needed to have shorter chain stays than the original Stache and that the then new 29+ idea was perfect for a trail hard tail design. In fact, Trek is claiming this redefines the trail hard tail. Being that the Manitou decided to jump in and do a 29+ and 27.5+ specific fork, Trek could push this idea to fruition. The fork comes in at two levels and is dubbed the "Magnum Pro" and "Magnum Comp", by the way. It takes its design cues and internal workings ideas from Manitou's previous Dorado and Mattoc forks and features the new front spacing standard of 110mm, called "Boost110". This makes for a more laterally stiff wheel which is smart. (I think they should have just gone to 135mm, but hey! Whadda I know?) Clearances for 3.25" tires on the fork, by the way.

So, 420mm stays when the through axle is pushed all the way back in the sliding drop out, (Stranglehold drop out is actually an ovalized slot type drop out that is fully enclosed.) , and it is single speed compatible. Compatible with 29, 29+, and 27.5+ type rubber, so its really versatile. Three versions, (Trek says more are coming, and I'll bet some are 27.5+), plus a frame set.

Obviously, with all the elevated this, squished seat tube that, you aren't going to run anything but a 1X system here. This is what makes a frame like this possible though, and in many ways, this is the culmination of an idea Gary Fisher and Mark Slate worked on back in 1999/2000 where Gary wanted short chain stays, longer front center, and a suspension fork, which ironically was a modded Manitou back then! Looks like things have come full circle, eh?

Stache 5 with rigid 100mmOD fork

Stache 9 with dropper post and Manitou Magnum Pro

The return of a classic gravel bike.

 Vaya Titanium v2: 

Ever since the Vaya came out in a titanium version, I have wanted one, because they make killer gravel road bikes. The geometry of these rigs is darn near perfection, and with the frame done up in smooth titanium, it makes the perfect gravel travel rig. However; the titanium Vaya was always hard to come by, even when they did make it at first, and then they switched to stainless steel with couplers. Not a bad idea, but not exactly titanium either. Plus, that steel frame came with a titanium price tag, which was vastly misunderstood by most riders. May as well buy a titanium bike, right? So, I decided to stay on the sidelines again....

Then yesterday, in a surprise announcement, Salsa Cycles comes back with a Titanium Vaya, and it has a modernized head tube, fantastic geometry again, and big tire clearances. WooHoo! But, it isn't all perfection here.

I still am not a huge fan of an adventure bike having paint on it if it is a titanium frame. Frame bags, dust, and the rough and tumble nature of gravel riding means that stuff isn't going to look good after a while. Titanium always looks good if it is bare, and maintenance of the finish is simple. I like the "purposeful" look and when you slather on the frame bags, who cares what color the tubes are?

The other thing is that while the rear drop out is replaceable, it isn't single speed compatible. While SRAM thinks we need 1X for gravel to simplify our gravel adventures, they and Salsa didn't think about what usually happens out there- rear derailleur carnage, that's what. Give me a solution to that and keep yer durned 1X gruppo and replaceable hangar to yerself! But, yeah......I am digging this new Vaya.

Deore XT 11 speed

SRAM Says 1X, Shimano Says "Whatevs!"

Shimano is killing it, in my opinion, and the new Deore XT is another step in the right direction. Offering everyone an option, and not forcing the front derailleur-less group on the masses, Shimano has come out with such a wide range gearing set up it is crazy. 3 X 11? Are you kidding me? 11-40 and 11-42 cassettes without a weird driver? Nice.

Now don't get me wrong, I like 1X stuff and I see where it makes sense, but when you deny me triple, and even double ring, crank sets, that's not cool. I rode a Deore level triple on a test bike last Fall/early Winter and it was eye opening. The cadence and momentum advantages were very evident. The shifting was super smooth, quiet, and not an issue at all. The range was spectacular. This was a 3 X 10. Imagine a wide range 11 speed cassette and a triple that was efficient in shifting performance with a bike packing set up. I mean really, when was the last time anyone blew up a front derailleur on a tour? Rear derailleurs and cassette bodies? Yeah, those get roached all the time, but you rarely hear about a front derailleur issue, only that it wouldn't shift. And Shimano has that sussed out now. The front derailleur isn't evil, (Anymore. At one time, yes- maybe), and I feel many would benefit from using them if they understood how. Because some people do not is not a reason to dumb down the drive train to 1X, but again- maybe it will make for a great entry point for non-cyclists until they learn the skills necessary to operate a triple. You know, gaining a skill set should be seen as something worth doing, not something to avoid, or made a negative.

Okay.....rant mode off!