WW4M: Brooks Cambium C-17

Brooks Cambium C-17 in Natural.

Saddles are a highly personal item and being one of the all important "touch points" for a human on a bicycle, there is a lot of debate on "what is best". So- take the following opinions on this saddle with a grain of salt. This may be your worst nightmare in terms of a bicycle saddle, or it may just not suit you. I get it. Save the comments. I am just sharing "What Works For Me", (WW4M, get it? ), and it may or may not be something you can use. Okay? With that said.......

Brooks saddles were traditionally made in leather for well over a century, have been lauded and hated on, and are still one of the most iconic bicycle components ever made. Maybe even the most iconic. Traditionalist, tourists, and hipsters have all been fans of the Brooks saddle over the decades. But with all of that, there was one thing that was a big issue. Moisture.

Brooks saddles are not really very moisture friendly. They can stretch, crack, and get all sorts of issues if you get them wet on multiple occasions and do not fastidiously take care of them. I have had Brooks leather saddles on other bikes, enjoyed the heck out of them, but I would never have put one on any of my gravel bikes or Fargos due to the problems Brooks saddles have with episodes of wetness. The comfort was there for me, but the durability without doing much maintenance was not there.

The C-17 in slate- Fear not the water!

My friend MG decided he had heard enough good things about Cambiums that he would pop for one. They are an expensive saddle, so it was a risk and it very well may not have worked for him. However; at the time folks were snapping up used ones in an alarmingly short amount of time if they became available, so he knew he could flip it if need be.

Well, as he told me later, he was angered by the Cambium. You see, he liked it so much he wanted four more! That was a costly try out! Eventually, he did get four more C-17 saddles to outfit his fleet. So, I trust his opinion to a great degree, and I decided last Summer to give a Slate colored C-17 a flier on my Standard Rando. I had the saddle on the bike by mid-summer and have been using it off and on since then.

Cambiums are made out of a textile and bonded to a natural rubber base which is stretched out over an aluminum frame. The materials are different than a traditional Brooks leather saddle, but the basic idea of the design remains. The rubber base acts like the leather, like a sort of hammock, and the aluminum frame is much like its steel counterpart in the leather saddle. Besides the materials, the Cambium differs in that it can withstand being very wet without having to be carefully maintained afterwards. A big plus for bikes that might see muddy roads, rain, or even wet snow on occasion. Body moisture in the form of sweat can deform a saddle made of leather as well, but the Cambium also is not affected by sweat in the same manner.

Okay, that's all just great, but was it comfortable? At first, I wasn't so sold on the Cambium. The base was stiff and not very forgiving to my body movements and bumps from the road. However; after about three good two to three hour rides, the saddle came in and was a completely different experience. The base was forgiving after this, and now it is one of the most comfortable saddles I have ever ridden. Obviously, the shape also agrees with me.

One final thing. The comparison to a leather Brooks and the Cambium. In my opinion, there is a "sweet spot" on a leather Brooks and you don't have a whole lot of fore and aft "wiggle room" before you get to the rivets or a spot that is uncomfortable in some way. With the Cambium, I feel that this is far less of an issue. I'm not sure if that is due to how the Cambium's undercarriage is different or not, but I suspect that this is the reason I find that I can move around a bit more with comfort on a Cambium saddle.

Would a Cambium work for you? Heck, I don't know. I just know that they work for me and I bought a second one based upon my experiences.

WW4M: Brooks Cambium C-17

Brooks Cambium C-17 in Natural.

Saddles are a highly personal item and being one of the all important "touch points" for a human on a bicycle, there is a lot of debate on "what is best". So- take the following opinions on this saddle with a grain of salt. This may be your worst nightmare in terms of a bicycle saddle, or it may just not suit you. I get it. Save the comments. I am just sharing "What Works For Me", (WW4M, get it? ), and it may or may not be something you can use. Okay? With that said.......

Brooks saddles were traditionally made in leather for well over a century, have been lauded and hated on, and are still one of the most iconic bicycle components ever made. Maybe even the most iconic. Traditionalist, tourists, and hipsters have all been fans of the Brooks saddle over the decades. But with all of that, there was one thing that was a big issue. Moisture.

Brooks saddles are not really very moisture friendly. They can stretch, crack, and get all sorts of issues if you get them wet on multiple occasions and do not fastidiously take care of them. I have had Brooks leather saddles on other bikes, enjoyed the heck out of them, but I would never have put one on any of my gravel bikes or Fargos due to the problems Brooks saddles have with episodes of wetness. The comfort was there for me, but the durability without doing much maintenance was not there.

The C-17 in slate- Fear not the water!

My friend MG decided he had heard enough good things about Cambiums that he would pop for one. They are an expensive saddle, so it was a risk and it very well may not have worked for him. However; at the time folks were snapping up used ones in an alarmingly short amount of time if they became available, so he knew he could flip it if need be.

Well, as he told me later, he was angered by the Cambium. You see, he liked it so much he wanted four more! That was a costly try out! Eventually, he did get four more C-17 saddles to outfit his fleet. So, I trust his opinion to a great degree, and I decided last Summer to give a Slate colored C-17 a flier on my Standard Rando. I had the saddle on the bike by mid-summer and have been using it off and on since then.

Cambiums are made out of a textile and bonded to a natural rubber base which is stretched out over an aluminum frame. The materials are different than a traditional Brooks leather saddle, but the basic idea of the design remains. The rubber base acts like the leather, like a sort of hammock, and the aluminum frame is much like its steel counterpart in the leather saddle. Besides the materials, the Cambium differs in that it can withstand being very wet without having to be carefully maintained afterwards. A big plus for bikes that might see muddy roads, rain, or even wet snow on occasion. Body moisture in the form of sweat can deform a saddle made of leather as well, but the Cambium also is not affected by sweat in the same manner.

Okay, that's all just great, but was it comfortable? At first, I wasn't so sold on the Cambium. The base was stiff and not very forgiving to my body movements and bumps from the road. However; after about three good two to three hour rides, the saddle came in and was a completely different experience. The base was forgiving after this, and now it is one of the most comfortable saddles I have ever ridden. Obviously, the shape also agrees with me.

One final thing. The comparison to a leather Brooks and the Cambium. In my opinion, there is a "sweet spot" on a leather Brooks and you don't have a whole lot of fore and aft "wiggle room" before you get to the rivets or a spot that is uncomfortable in some way. With the Cambium, I feel that this is far less of an issue. I'm not sure if that is due to how the Cambium's undercarriage is different or not, but I suspect that this is the reason I find that I can move around a bit more with comfort on a Cambium saddle.

Would a Cambium work for you? Heck, I don't know. I just know that they work for me and I bought a second one based upon my experiences.

Game Of (Cycling) Thrones

The WTB Pure V- One of my favorite saddles for long days of bicycling

The bicycle saddle has long been a source of contention, frustration, and laser beam focus for cyclists for decades if not for over a century. Of course, it is one of the primary "touch points" of a bicycle. The others being the grips and gloves, then the shoes/pedals, which, by the way, are much easier deals to navigate for any cyclist.

Take for instance the pedal. It basically is only a device for your shoe to push on. You can ride in whatever shoes fit you and are most comfortable, of course, and you already know what size you need. Well..........maybe I assume too much. Let's just agree that there is a well codified system that you can use to find a shoe that fits.

Grips and gloves are also pretty easy things to get figured out. There are ergonomically designed grips and gloves come in sizes which can be fitted to almost any human's paw. This isn't that hard to figure out. Not so with saddles. 

Cambium C-17. My newest favorite saddle.

Until recently we mostly were left to guess what saddle might work by reading marketing hype and squeezing saddles in the shops like we were shopping for fresh produce. Then we learned about "sit bones" but unless you were around a shop with one of those gel infested benches, you had no idea how to measure yours. Maybe it was all too sciency for mere mortals to grasp.

I actually got to sit on one of these benches. It was as if I mistakenly sat on a full diaper. Gross would describe the experience. Isn't there a better way to do this? Then there is the whole weird out with dealing with that part  of your body. I mean, for me- yeah. No big deal. But I could easily see where some folks that need the most help would be the most sensitive about getting fitted.

Ya know, I knew my shoe size and even my glove size when I was a teenager. But I never figured out my "sit bone" width until I was well on into my 40's. Then even when/if you know that, you still have to find the right saddle for the bike you have, the style of riding you do, and how you position yourself on said saddle. It ain't easy, and I wish it were, but I think after about ten years of trying different saddles I found a couple that fit me really well. Brooks and WTB for me, but the stubborn journey I took to discover that maybe would be too daunting for many folks.

I wonder if this is why we have so many "non-cyclists" who have left cycling because they couldn't find the right saddle? Maybe. What do I know. All I can say is that it is still crazy after all these years that we don't stop this silly game of not having a way to figure out the correct saddle for folks, at least in a rudimentary way.

Game Of (Cycling) Thrones

The WTB Pure V- One of my favorite saddles for long days of bicycling

The bicycle saddle has long been a source of contention, frustration, and laser beam focus for cyclists for decades if not for over a century. Of course, it is one of the primary "touch points" of a bicycle. The others being the grips and gloves, then the shoes/pedals, which, by the way, are much easier deals to navigate for any cyclist.

Take for instance the pedal. It basically is only a device for your shoe to push on. You can ride in whatever shoes fit you and are most comfortable, of course, and you already know what size you need. Well..........maybe I assume too much. Let's just agree that there is a well codified system that you can use to find a shoe that fits.

Grips and gloves are also pretty easy things to get figured out. There are ergonomically designed grips and gloves come in sizes which can be fitted to almost any human's paw. This isn't that hard to figure out. Not so with saddles. 

Cambium C-17. My newest favorite saddle.

Until recently we mostly were left to guess what saddle might work by reading marketing hype and squeezing saddles in the shops like we were shopping for fresh produce. Then we learned about "sit bones" but unless you were around a shop with one of those gel infested benches, you had no idea how to measure yours. Maybe it was all too sciency for mere mortals to grasp.

I actually got to sit on one of these benches. It was as if I mistakenly sat on a full diaper. Gross would describe the experience. Isn't there a better way to do this? Then there is the whole weird out with dealing with that part  of your body. I mean, for me- yeah. No big deal. But I could easily see where some folks that need the most help would be the most sensitive about getting fitted.

Ya know, I knew my shoe size and even my glove size when I was a teenager. But I never figured out my "sit bone" width until I was well on into my 40's. Then even when/if you know that, you still have to find the right saddle for the bike you have, the style of riding you do, and how you position yourself on said saddle. It ain't easy, and I wish it were, but I think after about ten years of trying different saddles I found a couple that fit me really well. Brooks and WTB for me, but the stubborn journey I took to discover that maybe would be too daunting for many folks.

I wonder if this is why we have so many "non-cyclists" who have left cycling because they couldn't find the right saddle? Maybe. What do I know. All I can say is that it is still crazy after all these years that we don't stop this silly game of not having a way to figure out the correct saddle for folks, at least in a rudimentary way.

Friday News And Views

Pre-Order Ends Today:

Just a friendly reminder that the RidingGravel.com jersey/shorts/accessories pre-order ends today.

If you've ordered anything, the deal is supposed to be all manufactured and sent out in Mid-March, so this stuff should hit about the time that good weather comes to stay. (Hopefully!)

So this year I will have this kit, and I also pre-ordered the "army green" Pirate Cycling League kit again. I like supporting that group of guys. They've truly been some of the unsung pioneers of the gravel scene. Lincoln, Nebraska had gravel grinders before anyone knew what they were. I'm talking way back.

Anyway, new jerseys are coming, and even though they aren't wool, I will wear these when I am training or riding for fun. Of course, I'll likely fly the RidingGravel.com livery at selected events. I'd like to make a jersey based off our design for the RG jersey in wool. I may have to look into that.....

Creamy. You'll understand later.......

Another Piece Of The Puzzle:

I am continuing to gather up the parts I want to get for the old frame I have in the basement put back together again. It is a fillet brazed piece and you've seen it before here on the blog. Ten years ago is when I got it, so it seems only fitting that I resurrect it now.

The Salsa Ti Regulator post will be what this Brooks C-17 gets mounted to. I expect that the result will be one super-cushy ride. Each of these components I have ridden before, but not in combination, so I have an inkling that it should prove to be a good way to go.

I'm choosing the "Natural" version of the C-17 as it will really compliment the paint scheme of the frame and the over-all look I am trying to achieve here with this bike build. I have much of the drive train sorted already, and the last bit remaining that will be a big expense will be the wheels.

So, I will be researching my choices in the wheel department. I am looking at new hubs. I really don't need to get hubs because I have some that would work, but in this instance I think I have to "do it right". The reasoning there is because I didn't "do it right" the first time I built this up, nor the second time that I built it up. I basically hodge-podged the thing and that always bugged me. It is a custom frame, for crying out loud. It deserves a top-flite build, so that's what it is going to get.

There is a reason this visual abomination exists.

When "Stiff" Isn't What Is "Good"

I was reading about a prototype "gravel bike" that will be coming out soon. In the "blah-blah" about the bike, the comment I saw that raised a red flag for me was one referring to the proposed frame for the bike. It read as follows, ".......should help improve stiffness up front"

If you ride rough, gravel laden roads, the last thing you want is a stiffer anything up front. Unless you like getting jack-hammered into submission and think that makes you more "manly" or something. I don't know. I just don't get all these "stiffer forks", "stiffer front ends" and whatnot. Obviously, there is a missing link here with "designers of gravel bikes" and "people who actually ride" gravel bikes.

Take the ugly duckling of a fork many are flocking to to relieve themselves of vibrations. That would be the Lauf Grit model. It flies in the face of the "stiffer is better" mantra by using 30mm of undamped travel. Travel- as in suspension travel. Not stiffness. 

Whatever you may think of the Lauf, it brings up an interesting conundrum when considering what many companies are saying we need in a gravel/all road bike and what many riders are actually seeking for in a gravel/all road bike. That quality riders would be seeking is less vibrations, and I am pretty certain that a "stiffer front end" and a "stiffer fork" are not going to be bringing on the "less vibrations" feelings. Yeah........I am pretty sure about that. 

So, if you are working for a company that is seeking to bring out a model for gravel/all road riding, don't make the front end stiffer! That's the wrong direction. Make the front end more compliant, more comfortable, and hopefully, better looking than the Lauf Grit fork.

If you take my suggestions to heart, we'll be heading in the right direction. For once.......

That's all for this weekend. Stay warm, stay upright! Get out and ride if ya can.  

Friday News And Views

Pre-Order Ends Today:

Just a friendly reminder that the RidingGravel.com jersey/shorts/accessories pre-order ends today.

If you've ordered anything, the deal is supposed to be all manufactured and sent out in Mid-March, so this stuff should hit about the time that good weather comes to stay. (Hopefully!)

So this year I will have this kit, and I also pre-ordered the "army green" Pirate Cycling League kit again. I like supporting that group of guys. They've truly been some of the unsung pioneers of the gravel scene. Lincoln, Nebraska had gravel grinders before anyone knew what they were. I'm talking way back.

Anyway, new jerseys are coming, and even though they aren't wool, I will wear these when I am training or riding for fun. Of course, I'll likely fly the RidingGravel.com livery at selected events. I'd like to make a jersey based off our design for the RG jersey in wool. I may have to look into that.....

Creamy. You'll understand later.......

Another Piece Of The Puzzle:

I am continuing to gather up the parts I want to get for the old frame I have in the basement put back together again. It is a fillet brazed piece and you've seen it before here on the blog. Ten years ago is when I got it, so it seems only fitting that I resurrect it now.

The Salsa Ti Regulator post will be what this Brooks C-17 gets mounted to. I expect that the result will be one super-cushy ride. Each of these components I have ridden before, but not in combination, so I have an inkling that it should prove to be a good way to go.

I'm choosing the "Natural" version of the C-17 as it will really compliment the paint scheme of the frame and the over-all look I am trying to achieve here with this bike build. I have much of the drive train sorted already, and the last bit remaining that will be a big expense will be the wheels.

So, I will be researching my choices in the wheel department. I am looking at new hubs. I really don't need to get hubs because I have some that would work, but in this instance I think I have to "do it right". The reasoning there is because I didn't "do it right" the first time I built this up, nor the second time that I built it up. I basically hodge-podged the thing and that always bugged me. It is a custom frame, for crying out loud. It deserves a top-flite build, so that's what it is going to get.

There is a reason this visual abomination exists.

When "Stiff" Isn't What Is "Good"

I was reading about a prototype "gravel bike" that will be coming out soon. In the "blah-blah" about the bike, the comment I saw that raised a red flag for me was one referring to the proposed frame for the bike. It read as follows, ".......should help improve stiffness up front"

If you ride rough, gravel laden roads, the last thing you want is a stiffer anything up front. Unless you like getting jack-hammered into submission and think that makes you more "manly" or something. I don't know. I just don't get all these "stiffer forks", "stiffer front ends" and whatnot. Obviously, there is a missing link here with "designers of gravel bikes" and "people who actually ride" gravel bikes.

Take the ugly duckling of a fork many are flocking to to relieve themselves of vibrations. That would be the Lauf Grit model. It flies in the face of the "stiffer is better" mantra by using 30mm of undamped travel. Travel- as in suspension travel. Not stiffness. 

Whatever you may think of the Lauf, it brings up an interesting conundrum when considering what many companies are saying we need in a gravel/all road bike and what many riders are actually seeking for in a gravel/all road bike. That quality riders would be seeking is less vibrations, and I am pretty certain that a "stiffer front end" and a "stiffer fork" are not going to be bringing on the "less vibrations" feelings. Yeah........I am pretty sure about that. 

So, if you are working for a company that is seeking to bring out a model for gravel/all road riding, don't make the front end stiffer! That's the wrong direction. Make the front end more compliant, more comfortable, and hopefully, better looking than the Lauf Grit fork.

If you take my suggestions to heart, we'll be heading in the right direction. For once.......

That's all for this weekend. Stay warm, stay upright! Get out and ride if ya can.  

Saddle Up

Don't fear the weather! It's waterproof.

I mentioned last week that I had a new brooks C-17 to put on my Twin Six Standard Rando. Well, I did get that on there and I have ridden it for a couple of hours now. Before I get into the ride impressions, I'll give you all that may not know about these saddles a bit of back ground.

Brooks saddles traditionally were all leather and as such, weren't good to get wet. Wet leather stretches, shrinks, cracks, and rots, which leaves you with a not so great leather saddle, eventually. Now, I own two Brooks leather B-17 models, and I tend to try to only ride them when it is drier to save myself the trouble of covering it when it is raining or from having to do maintenance sooner than I'd like, which is basically never for a bicycle saddle. That's the unvarnished truth. Saddle maintenance seems like an oxymoron. Saddles should be ridden until such time that they fall apart, break down, and/or hurt your posterior. Hopefully that is a ton of miles down the road or trail. Yes.....I have done maintenance on my Brooks, but I'd rather not have to get another one to take care of.

Enter the Cambium series of saddles which has tackled the issue of weather by using vulcanized rubber and organic cotton as a material instead of leather. This is stretched across a simple frame work, much like an original Brooks, only the materials are different. The frame is an aluminum casting for the back and front with steel rails and the rivets are a two piece affair and are screwed together instead of the usual method which is used on the leather models.

So far.......so good.

The C-17 is roughly the same dimensions as a B-17, so I opted to purchase that model. However; there are two narrower choices in the C-15 and C-13. Shorter "S" designated models are recommended for females. My C-17 weighed in at 410 grams, so not a lightweight saddle at all, but not as heavy as a leather Brooks either, which are typically in the 500+ gram range.

First Impressions: Out of the box the Cambium feels stiff and hard, but that's because it needs the full weight of your body on it to work in the desired fashion. In fact, if you have the saddle mounted on a seat post and that inserted securely into a frame, the shell of the Cambium has a nice, flexible feel, so do not think it is stiff and hard if you handle it in the box.

The Cambium C-17 comes in a few colors and mine is "Slate". It is a grayish-blue hue, and it goes well with the T-6's graphics. It mounted well and I set it up with the "peak", or nose of the saddle, slightly upward as recommended. The first time I sat on it I could feel that it had a flexible shell and I thought it might be too soft. However; after a few minutes of riding the saddle I never even noticed the flexible shell. It basically was one of those invisible component moments. Let's hope it stays that way.

The underside of the saddle shows the natural vulcanized rubber shell.

Obviously it is hard to make any judgments about a saddle after one, two hour long ride, but at least I didn't feel any negatives while trying it out. Miraculously the slightly tilted up nose was at least close to perfectly set for me. I may want to make a fine tune adjustment later, but for now I am sticking with what I have it set at now. Other than that, so far......so good. 

I am a big believer in the "3+ hour rule". That rule says that any saddle worth keeping will still be comfortable after three hours straight of riding. At least from my experience, this seems to hold true. I have been on many saddles that were fantastic feeling up to the three hour mark but after that became a torture device. Brooks B-17 models have passed this test with me, so I am hopeful this one will as well.

The Brooks site is interesting in that for any model they sell they list the good words from customers as well as the bad ones. It's pretty hilarious, actually, because there are as many horror stories about the C-17 as there are glowing praises. I know that from my own research amongst users I know and from bike shop folks who have direct feedback to share, the C-17 seems to either fit like a dream and be a rider's favorite saddle, or it isn't at all a good feeling one, and the buyer flips it almost immediately. I will say that I am pretty sure I am not flipping this saddle soon, but we will wait for that three plus hour ride to happen and then we will all know. I once had a fizik Arione saddle I thought was the bees knees until I rode it more than three hours than I immediately ditched it.

Note: Guitar Ted bought this saddle with his own damn money and was not bribed nor paid for these words. Stay tuned for more soon.......

Saddle Up

Don't fear the weather! It's waterproof.

I mentioned last week that I had a new brooks C-17 to put on my Twin Six Standard Rando. Well, I did get that on there and I have ridden it for a couple of hours now. Before I get into the ride impressions, I'll give you all that may not know about these saddles a bit of back ground.

Brooks saddles traditionally were all leather and as such, weren't good to get wet. Wet leather stretches, shrinks, cracks, and rots, which leaves you with a not so great leather saddle, eventually. Now, I own two Brooks leather B-17 models, and I tend to try to only ride them when it is drier to save myself the trouble of covering it when it is raining or from having to do maintenance sooner than I'd like, which is basically never for a bicycle saddle. That's the unvarnished truth. Saddle maintenance seems like an oxymoron. Saddles should be ridden until such time that they fall apart, break down, and/or hurt your posterior. Hopefully that is a ton of miles down the road or trail. Yes.....I have done maintenance on my Brooks, but I'd rather not have to get another one to take care of.

Enter the Cambium series of saddles which has tackled the issue of weather by using vulcanized rubber and organic cotton as a material instead of leather. This is stretched across a simple frame work, much like an original Brooks, only the materials are different. The frame is an aluminum casting for the back and front with steel rails and the rivets are a two piece affair and are screwed together instead of the usual method which is used on the leather models.

So far.......so good.

The C-17 is roughly the same dimensions as a B-17, so I opted to purchase that model. However; there are two narrower choices in the C-15 and C-13. Shorter "S" designated models are recommended for females. My C-17 weighed in at 410 grams, so not a lightweight saddle at all, but not as heavy as a leather Brooks either, which are typically in the 500+ gram range.

First Impressions: Out of the box the Cambium feels stiff and hard, but that's because it needs the full weight of your body on it to work in the desired fashion. In fact, if you have the saddle mounted on a seat post and that inserted securely into a frame, the shell of the Cambium has a nice, flexible feel, so do not think it is stiff and hard if you handle it in the box.

The Cambium C-17 comes in a few colors and mine is "Slate". It is a grayish-blue hue, and it goes well with the T-6's graphics. It mounted well and I set it up with the "peak", or nose of the saddle, slightly upward as recommended. The first time I sat on it I could feel that it had a flexible shell and I thought it might be too soft. However; after a few minutes of riding the saddle I never even noticed the flexible shell. It basically was one of those invisible component moments. Let's hope it stays that way.

The underside of the saddle shows the natural vulcanized rubber shell.

Obviously it is hard to make any judgments about a saddle after one, two hour long ride, but at least I didn't feel any negatives while trying it out. Miraculously the slightly tilted up nose was at least close to perfectly set for me. I may want to make a fine tune adjustment later, but for now I am sticking with what I have it set at now. Other than that, so far......so good. 

I am a big believer in the "3+ hour rule". That rule says that any saddle worth keeping will still be comfortable after three hours straight of riding. At least from my experience, this seems to hold true. I have been on many saddles that were fantastic feeling up to the three hour mark but after that became a torture device. Brooks B-17 models have passed this test with me, so I am hopeful this one will as well.

The Brooks site is interesting in that for any model they sell they list the good words from customers as well as the bad ones. It's pretty hilarious, actually, because there are as many horror stories about the C-17 as there are glowing praises. I know that from my own research amongst users I know and from bike shop folks who have direct feedback to share, the C-17 seems to either fit like a dream and be a rider's favorite saddle, or it isn't at all a good feeling one, and the buyer flips it almost immediately. I will say that I am pretty sure I am not flipping this saddle soon, but we will wait for that three plus hour ride to happen and then we will all know. I once had a fizik Arione saddle I thought was the bees knees until I rode it more than three hours than I immediately ditched it.

Note: Guitar Ted bought this saddle with his own damn money and was not bribed nor paid for these words. Stay tuned for more soon.......