Opinions On Wide Rims For Gravel

Image courtesy of SRAM

This week saw the release of several items from SRAM and their brands for the gravel rider. One of these items was a wheel set from Zipp Wheels. 

Dubbed the "303 XPLR S and SW", the wheels were designed as "a speed-focused gravel wheel" and are intended to be used only with two tire models that were designed in conjunction with Goodyear to work best on these rims. 

The rims are a hookless design, which will put a lot of folks off right there besides the proprietary nature of the tire choice. That all is a debate for another day. I want to focus on the rim width detail which in this case is 32mm wide internal. 

Many riders are going to read about this wider rim and how Goodyear and Zipp managed to build a tire to mate with the rim to be very aerodynamic. This sounds like it makes sense, and in reality, having that tire/rim interface be optimized for aero is an advantage to racers. But gravel riders being who they are, I know that they will want to use whatever tires they want to use, and I know tire manufacturers are not going to come to a consensus on rim/tire interface for the best aero numbers. Nope! That ain't-a-gonna happen. 

Furthermore, I have experimented with wide internal width rims and typical width gravel tires already. Now, my focus wasn't on ultimate aerodynamic efficiencies. My focus was on what that rim did to my tires, and what that resulted in when I rode my bicycle. Those things matter more to me, and I would wager that they matter more to most gravel riders, not just racers. 

So, instead of re-writing a bunch of text I've already written, I will direct you to two posts I wrote in the Fall of 2021. The first is HERE and the second is HERE. 

Essentially, for those who want a condensed version, inner rim width and tire width need to be in ranges that compliment each other. There are rims that are too narrow for wide tires and tires that are too narrow for wide rims. This seems obvious, but click and read the links, especially the first one, to get a bead on why I feel that way. 

Thanks for reading Guitar Ted Productions.

Chipping Away At The Build

This is what the Singular Gryphon Mk3 will look like.

I've taken a bit of a turn on my thoughts for my upcoming Singular Cycles Gryphon v2 build. I've also been scheming up a build and I have procured a very important bit for the bike. This post will be a progress report. 

So, originally I was thinking this build would be easier if I did it as a single speed. However, after looking at all the parts I have available to me now to complete this, I have taken a different approach. This will end up becoming a 1X bike.

This became the reasonable way to go after I got it through my thick head that this bike was a 12mm through axle, non-Boost spaced bike. Once I realized this, the wheel choice became an easy one to make. 

The wheels will end up being the "Project Wide Gravel v2" wheels which were a failed attempt at making a wide interface for gravel tires. But for plus-sized rubber, which is where I want to be with the Gryphon? They were perfect, so that led me down another path. That is because the DT Swiss rear hub I have has a SRAM XD cassette body on it. That is perfect for a wide range 1X set up. So, I think I am going to use those, an 11 speed XD cassette, and that led me to......tires!

I searched around for a tire with about a 2.6-2.8" width in 29'er size and landed on the Teravail Coronado.  Looking around for a decent price I noted that Lacemine 29 owner, Mike Curiak had posted a list of tires on his Big Wheels Deals page. I contacted Mike via email and he responded quickly. Next thing I knew my tires were in the 'mail' and I received them last weekend. So, now I have the rubber, the wheels, and the next thing will be the drive train. I have the cassette I think I'll need, so no worries there. 

I have an SLX crank set that could be converted to 1X or I could use that older XTR crank set which is silver and would go with the rest of the build. The stem, handle bar, and seat post are all silver. I'll have a Brooks C-17 saddle in Wheat color on it to start out with, and those wheels have black rims to make the tan sidewall 'pop'. It should be a pretty handsome bike when it gets all put together. 

That won't be until this fall when the frame and fork comes in. Stay tuned.....

Chipping Away At The Build

This is what the Singular Gryphon Mk3 will look like.

I've taken a bit of a turn on my thoughts for my upcoming Singular Cycles Gryphon v2 build. I've also been scheming up a build and I have procured a very important bit for the bike. This post will be a progress report. 

So, originally I was thinking this build would be easier if I did it as a single speed. However, after looking at all the parts I have available to me now to complete this, I have taken a different approach. This will end up becoming a 1X bike.

This became the reasonable way to go after I got it through my thick head that this bike was a 12mm through axle, non-Boost spaced bike. Once I realized this, the wheel choice became an easy one to make. 

The wheels will end up being the "Project Wide Gravel v2" wheels which were a failed attempt at making a wide interface for gravel tires. But for plus-sized rubber, which is where I want to be with the Gryphon? They were perfect, so that led me down another path. That is because the DT Swiss rear hub I have has a SRAM XD cassette body on it. That is perfect for a wide range 1X set up. So, I think I am going to use those, an 11 speed XD cassette, and that led me to......tires!

I searched around for a tire with about a 2.6-2.8" width in 29'er size and landed on the Teravail Coronado.  Looking around for a decent price I noted that Lacemine 29 owner, Mike Curiak had posted a list of tires on his Big Wheels Deals page. I contacted Mike via email and he responded quickly. Next thing I knew my tires were in the 'mail' and I received them last weekend. So, now I have the rubber, the wheels, and the next thing will be the drive train. I have the cassette I think I'll need, so no worries there. 

I have an SLX crank set that could be converted to 1X or I could use that older XTR crank set which is silver and would go with the rest of the build. The stem, handle bar, and seat post are all silver. I'll have a Brooks C-17 saddle in Wheat color on it to start out with, and those wheels have black rims to make the tan sidewall 'pop'. It should be a pretty handsome bike when it gets all put together. 

That won't be until this fall when the frame and fork comes in. Stay tuned.....

Paul Components WORD Disc Hub Review: Part 1

This arrived on Saturday.....

 Since mid-2021 I have been keen on getting the Twin Six Standard Rando v2 on a single speed specific rear wheel set up. That was after I swapped back to a drop bar set up and I realized that this bike makes a great purpose-built single speed. 

But as I have stated in another post, finding a 12mm through axle, single speed only hub is not an easy task. Ten, maybe fifteen years ago, when single speed was in its hey-day due to the popularity of single speed 29"ers, you could find a lot of single speed specific rear hubs. However; those were almost always just quick release, or a combination of that and bolted on options. Neither will work on a through-axle frame like the Standard Rando v2. 

I knew Paul Component Engineering made one, and it was a thread-on free wheel style hub, which actually is what I'd rather have than a truncated cassette style. That is because the thread-on style usually is made in such a way that the resulting wheel build has a zero dish set up. That is "stronger" and "stiffer". Both good things on a high-torque situation as with single speed bikes. Now, Paul Components are not cheap, in terms of dollars, so I was waiting to see if I could somehow score one via the old shop job. Well, that never happened. So, I ponied up my own funds via some income from RidingGravel.com, and I got a hold of that hub this past weekend. 

So, in this post I wanted to document my experience with ordering this hub, because it was pretty good for these times, and also Paul Components does a really great job with the process and experience in general. As most of you probably do these days, I order a lot of stuff online, so when I have a great experience and good service, I will tell you about it, as long as it is bicycle related. I should say that Paul Component Engineering doesn't have any idea at all that I am doing this and that I paid full retail for the hub. Okay, here we go in pictures.....

Scared of clowns? Don't look too closely at this box's graphic design! 

No plastic- everything sent to me besides a vinyl sticker was recyclable

It may seem silly to some of you, but a nice "thank you" and a treat of hard candies goes a long way.

And of course, the WORD Disc Hub itself was in there.

When I ordered this hub I saw warnings and received another when I placed the order that it may take a few weeks - or more- depending upon COVID and whatnot, to get this hub. Of course, I had been on a waiting list for months, since last Summer. (That's why I didn't get the shop discount) So, I was okay with that. But all along afterword Paul Components sent out regular updates to me and thanked me for my patience. That was greatly appreciated and I never felt at any point that my order had been neglected or that I had been forgotten about.

Tracking of the package once it was in the USPS system was flawless. This is generally NOT the case with USPS as I can attest to. I have parts coming for my amplifier repairs (guitar stuff) and that at the same time as the Paul order and USPS tracking is about as good as detecting ghosts in the attic. I'm not sure if Paul Components took cookies down to their local USPS office for the Holidays to 'grease the wheels', but that tracking experience was top notch. 

The manual with the hub has all the dimensions you need to build up a wheel

Another nice touch, besides the things shown above, was that the manual which came with the hub had all the hub dimensions necessary for me to calculate spoke lengths. All I required was the ERD measurement for the Velocity Blunt SS rim, which Velocity publishes on their site, and a short innergoogles trip to the United Bicycle Institute's spoke calculator page later and I was set. 

Then I visited my stash of Wheelsmith spokes and nipples and I found that I had all the things I needed to build up this wheel. So, I Spoke Prep'd the Wheelsmith spokes I pulled for this job on Sunday and laced this wheel up. But before I get into all of that....

Disc WORD Hub = 200 grams

Velocity USA Blunt SS 700c rim = 420 grams

Okay, so I decided to go with my "Guitar Ted Productions "Standard Build"" design which is all silver spokes on one side and all black spokes on the other side. This time I used all silver brass (natch) nipples. Being that there was no dish on the build to accommodate for a cassette or for the disc brake, the wheel was simple enough to build up and it looks as though it should tension up very well. 

So far- so good.

I'll likely have tensioned this up by the time that you are reading this on the post date. Next after that will be swapping over my White Industries freewheel. Then taping, valve stems, tires, sealant, a rotor, and I'm good to go. That will cover the rear wheel.

Then I'm going to take the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 and do a rim swap from the Spank 350's to my set of 28 hole Velocity Blunts. Then I will have a single speed rear which will stay with the Standard Rando, but the front could come off, be paired with the cassette rear, and set up on the BMC or the Noble bike, or whatever may come in the future. That will make the DT Swiss 350 hubs useful also instead of sitting around on rims too wide to use on my gravel bikes. 

Then, in the future, I will probably get some Boost spaced hubs, lace those Spank rims to those, and maybe build up a modern day MTB-ish bike. But we'll see. As for this hub/wheel here I will give a progress report on the final details on the set up. That will be coming soon. Then at some point I'll do a ride report on the hub. So, as for now, I can recommend the Paul Component Engineering ordering experience and the experience of receiving the box and contents was very nice. Stay tuned......

Paul Components WORD Disc Hub Review: Part 1

This arrived on Saturday.....

 Since mid-2021 I have been keen on getting the Twin Six Standard Rando v2 on a single speed specific rear wheel set up. That was after I swapped back to a drop bar set up and I realized that this bike makes a great purpose-built single speed. 

But as I have stated in another post, finding a 12mm through axle, single speed only hub is not an easy task. Ten, maybe fifteen years ago, when single speed was in its hey-day due to the popularity of single speed 29"ers, you could find a lot of single speed specific rear hubs. However; those were almost always just quick release, or a combination of that and bolted on options. Neither will work on a through-axle frame like the Standard Rando v2. 

I knew Paul Component Engineering made one, and it was a thread-on free wheel style hub, which actually is what I'd rather have than a truncated cassette style. That is because the thread-on style usually is made in such a way that the resulting wheel build has a zero dish set up. That is "stronger" and "stiffer". Both good things on a high-torque situation as with single speed bikes. Now, Paul Components are not cheap, in terms of dollars, so I was waiting to see if I could somehow score one via the old shop job. Well, that never happened. So, I ponied up my own funds via some income from RidingGravel.com, and I got a hold of that hub this past weekend. 

So, in this post I wanted to document my experience with ordering this hub, because it was pretty good for these times, and also Paul Components does a really great job with the process and experience in general. As most of you probably do these days, I order a lot of stuff online, so when I have a great experience and good service, I will tell you about it, as long as it is bicycle related. I should say that Paul Component Engineering doesn't have any idea at all that I am doing this and that I paid full retail for the hub. Okay, here we go in pictures.....

Scared of clowns? Don't look too closely at this box's graphic design! 

No plastic- everything sent to me besides a vinyl sticker was recyclable

It may seem silly to some of you, but a nice "thank you" and a treat of hard candies goes a long way.

And of course, the WORD Disc Hub itself was in there.

When I ordered this hub I saw warnings and received another when I placed the order that it may take a few weeks - or more- depending upon COVID and whatnot, to get this hub. Of course, I had been on a waiting list for months, since last Summer. (That's why I didn't get the shop discount) So, I was okay with that. But all along afterword Paul Components sent out regular updates to me and thanked me for my patience. That was greatly appreciated and I never felt at any point that my order had been neglected or that I had been forgotten about.

Tracking of the package once it was in the USPS system was flawless. This is generally NOT the case with USPS as I can attest to. I have parts coming for my amplifier repairs (guitar stuff) and that at the same time as the Paul order and USPS tracking is about as good as detecting ghosts in the attic. I'm not sure if Paul Components took cookies down to their local USPS office for the Holidays to 'grease the wheels', but that tracking experience was top notch. 

The manual with the hub has all the dimensions you need to build up a wheel

Another nice touch, besides the things shown above, was that the manual which came with the hub had all the hub dimensions necessary for me to calculate spoke lengths. All I required was the ERD measurement for the Velocity Blunt SS rim, which Velocity publishes on their site, and a short innergoogles trip to the United Bicycle Institute's spoke calculator page later and I was set. 

Then I visited my stash of Wheelsmith spokes and nipples and I found that I had all the things I needed to build up this wheel. So, I Spoke Prep'd the Wheelsmith spokes I pulled for this job on Sunday and laced this wheel up. But before I get into all of that....

Disc WORD Hub = 200 grams

Velocity USA Blunt SS 700c rim = 420 grams

Okay, so I decided to go with my "Guitar Ted Productions "Standard Build"" design which is all silver spokes on one side and all black spokes on the other side. This time I used all silver brass (natch) nipples. Being that there was no dish on the build to accommodate for a cassette or for the disc brake, the wheel was simple enough to build up and it looks as though it should tension up very well. 

So far- so good.

I'll likely have tensioned this up by the time that you are reading this on the post date. Next after that will be swapping over my White Industries freewheel. Then taping, valve stems, tires, sealant, a rotor, and I'm good to go. That will cover the rear wheel.

Then I'm going to take the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 and do a rim swap from the Spank 350's to my set of 28 hole Velocity Blunts. Then I will have a single speed rear which will stay with the Standard Rando, but the front could come off, be paired with the cassette rear, and set up on the BMC or the Noble bike, or whatever may come in the future. That will make the DT Swiss 350 hubs useful also instead of sitting around on rims too wide to use on my gravel bikes. 

Then, in the future, I will probably get some Boost spaced hubs, lace those Spank rims to those, and maybe build up a modern day MTB-ish bike. But we'll see. As for this hub/wheel here I will give a progress report on the final details on the set up. That will be coming soon. Then at some point I'll do a ride report on the hub. So, as for now, I can recommend the Paul Component Engineering ordering experience and the experience of receiving the box and contents was very nice. Stay tuned......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Final Word

The PWGWv2 has seen its last ride.

First off, if you did not see the last post on this subject, here is the link. There are links there to see even more on this subject if you want to go down that rabbit hole. 

This post will likely be the last word I post up on this since I've made up my mind about the set up. I'll try not to cover too much ground concerning previous ideas which I've presented. (That's what the link is for) So, here is a bullet point list inspired by my friend Grannygear:

The Good:

• The Spank rims claim to have some vertical compliance built in. Meh...... Big tires at low pressures mask a lot of that, but I will say that these rims do ride well and they built up nicely. 
• The width of the Spank rim creates a big air chamber which allowed stupid low pressures (sometimes less than 30psi) without any perceived loss of low rolling resistance. 
• The Cannonballs from Teravail are not my favorite tires but on this rim I could live with them. That's saying something here for me. 
• The wheels, as far as that goes, would be great on a frame for wider tires, like up to 2.6"ers.  
• The DT Swiss 350 hubs are awesome. 

The Not So Good:

• These wheels feel like they weigh a ton. Once spun up though they want to roll and roll. 
• These wheels only work with really wide gravel tires limiting their use for my bicycles with through axles.
• The hubs are 100mm/142mm OD which means a MTB type bike which could go with bigger tires probably wouldn't work because everything is Boost spaced now. (yes- I realize Boost adapters are a thing, but that is a bit of a kludge)
• The Cannonball set up is fine, but there is minimal clearance on the BMC, and that is too little for my peace of mind long term. 
• I'm stuck with a wheel set I cannot really use as is.

So, where do I go from here? First off, this project is over and my take away is what I posted in the previous post in this series, but suffice it to say that the answer is 'no'. So, I need to move on and figure out what to do with what I have here. The first plan of action will be to take off the wheels and break down the tires and components off the wheel set. I'll put the Spinergy wheels I have on the BMC for now. 

Now if I can score some QR end caps for a DT Swiss 350 hub set, I could put these wheels to better use. They would make a fine set of wheels for my Gen I Fargo, as a matter of fact. So, that will probably be my first option.

Barring that, I probably will blow these wheels apart. Then I'd use the hubs and lace those to a brand new set of Velocity Blunt SS rims which probably would work on all of my gravel bikes since that rim has an internal width of 26.6mm, right at what I now consider to be the maximum for inner rim width for gravel tires. 

The Spank rims would go up on a hook for another day. Maybe they would be built into a wheel set for a future bike I don't have. I don't know, but obviously I would have to find a set of hubs appropriate for the job. Again- they could end up on the Fargo. 

Either way, it looks as though I'm building another wheel set!

Okay, if anyone has any further thoughts, please chime in. Otherwise, PWGWv2 is over. Stay tuned for PWGWv3.......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Final Word

The PWGWv2 has seen its last ride.

First off, if you did not see the last post on this subject, here is the link. There are links there to see even more on this subject if you want to go down that rabbit hole. 

This post will likely be the last word I post up on this since I've made up my mind about the set up. I'll try not to cover too much ground concerning previous ideas which I've presented. (That's what the link is for) So, here is a bullet point list inspired by my friend Grannygear:

The Good:

• The Spank rims claim to have some vertical compliance built in. Meh...... Big tires at low pressures mask a lot of that, but I will say that these rims do ride well and they built up nicely. 
• The width of the Spank rim creates a big air chamber which allowed stupid low pressures (sometimes less than 30psi) without any perceived loss of low rolling resistance. 
• The Cannonballs from Teravail are not my favorite tires but on this rim I could live with them. That's saying something here for me. 
• The wheels, as far as that goes, would be great on a frame for wider tires, like up to 2.6"ers.  
• The DT Swiss 350 hubs are awesome. 

The Not So Good:

• These wheels feel like they weigh a ton. Once spun up though they want to roll and roll. 
• These wheels only work with really wide gravel tires limiting their use for my bicycles with through axles.
• The hubs are 100mm/142mm OD which means a MTB type bike which could go with bigger tires probably wouldn't work because everything is Boost spaced now. (yes- I realize Boost adapters are a thing, but that is a bit of a kludge)
• The Cannonball set up is fine, but there is minimal clearance on the BMC, and that is too little for my peace of mind long term. 
• I'm stuck with a wheel set I cannot really use as is.

So, where do I go from here? First off, this project is over and my take away is what I posted in the previous post in this series, but suffice it to say that the answer is 'no'. So, I need to move on and figure out what to do with what I have here. The first plan of action will be to take off the wheels and break down the tires and components off the wheel set. I'll put the Spinergy wheels I have on the BMC for now. 

Now if I can score some QR end caps for a DT Swiss 350 hub set, I could put these wheels to better use. They would make a fine set of wheels for my Gen I Fargo, as a matter of fact. So, that will probably be my first option.

Barring that, I probably will blow these wheels apart. Then I'd use the hubs and lace those to a brand new set of Velocity Blunt SS rims which probably would work on all of my gravel bikes since that rim has an internal width of 26.6mm, right at what I now consider to be the maximum for inner rim width for gravel tires. 

The Spank rims would go up on a hook for another day. Maybe they would be built into a wheel set for a future bike I don't have. I don't know, but obviously I would have to find a set of hubs appropriate for the job. Again- they could end up on the Fargo. 

Either way, it looks as though I'm building another wheel set!

Okay, if anyone has any further thoughts, please chime in. Otherwise, PWGWv2 is over. Stay tuned for PWGWv3.......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: A Tire Swap & Impressions

 The last time I posted on the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 (PWGWv2) I mentioned that I wasn't all that impressed by the results I saw with a 700 X 42mm Resolute mounted up on the 30.5mm internal width Spank rims. I then made mention of possibly trying some wider tires, but not too wide, because if the tire I tried got much above 50mm in width, it wouldn't fit a gravel bike in my stable. The Black Mountain Cycles MCD actually being the only gravel bike that I own which I could even consider trying this idea. 

So, over the weekend I grabbed a set of Cannonball tires which I had tested for Riding Gravel and which are listed as 700 X 47mm in width. (Standard Disclaimer) I popped those onto the Spank rims easily with my newly resuscitated Topeak Joe Blow floor pump. The results were compared directly to the 700 X 47mm Rutland tires which I have mounted to some Spinergy GX wheels which have a 24mm internal rim width. The Cannonballs looked bigger and wider. Not by a little bit either.  

I measured the Cannonball tires on 24mm internal width rims during the Riding Gravel test and at that time they barely crossed the 49mm wide barrier. On the Spank rims? I measured these Cannonball tires out at 50.17mm in width. Whoa! Would they fit the Black Mountain Cycles MCD? I slapped on the rear tire first, because I knew that would be the deciding factor. 

It fit!

For dry use only! There isn't much clearance here!

So, now what? Well, an important factor which I detailed out in the last update on the PWGWv2, (go back to see that via the very first hyperlink in this post), was how a tire's profile can be altered by internal rim width. Too skinny or too wide is too much. How did the Cannonball look? On a 24mm internal width rim, the 700 X 47mm Cannonball was quite rounded. I felt that this was to the tire's detriment on looser surfaces. Now with the Cannonball tires on the 30.5mm internal rim width Spank rims, the profile of the tire is predictably flatter, since as the bead of each side of a tire casing gets further apart, the crown of the profile of the tire flattens out. This occurred beautifully on the Cannonball and I think it is an improvement in this instance. 

From Sunday's ride.

So, what about that Rutland in 47mm width? How do I think that would do? This tire tends to be a flatter crowned tire than the Cannonball, so my guess is that a 30.5mm internal rim width would be too much for that tire. It will flatten the crown profile even further, and that would only take away speed and to some extent, handling. 

My take away here is that the PWGWv2 is 'good' in very limited circumstances. It depends upon the tire used, and those tires have to be wider than 45mm. Also, I do not have the proper bicycle to explore the options that would, perhaps, make even more sense than the Cannonball tires do. I would need a bicycle rated for 29"er X 2.4" tires, minimum, to get everything out of these wheels that is there. At that point, these are not really "wide gravel wheels" anymore, so my conclusion from the last update holds true. 700c rims for gravel bikes probably should be in the 24mm-26mm range for internal rim widths so that they will work on gravel bikes using 700 X 38mm-45mm tires. Wider internal rim widths start to degrade a gravel tire's performance, especially on the lower end of the tire width spectrum, and on the wider end, tires may not fit frames anymore. 

Going forward, I plan on ride testing the PWGWv2 with these Cannonball tires and reporting back with a final word and plans for this wheel set's future. 

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: A Tire Swap & Impressions

 The last time I posted on the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 (PWGWv2) I mentioned that I wasn't all that impressed by the results I saw with a 700 X 42mm Resolute mounted up on the 30.5mm internal width Spank rims. I then made mention of possibly trying some wider tires, but not too wide, because if the tire I tried got much above 50mm in width, it wouldn't fit a gravel bike in my stable. The Black Mountain Cycles MCD actually being the only gravel bike that I own which I could even consider trying this idea. 

So, over the weekend I grabbed a set of Cannonball tires which I had tested for Riding Gravel and which are listed as 700 X 47mm in width. (Standard Disclaimer) I popped those onto the Spank rims easily with my newly resuscitated Topeak Joe Blow floor pump. The results were compared directly to the 700 X 47mm Rutland tires which I have mounted to some Spinergy GX wheels which have a 24mm internal rim width. The Cannonballs looked bigger and wider. Not by a little bit either.  

I measured the Cannonball tires on 24mm internal width rims during the Riding Gravel test and at that time they barely crossed the 49mm wide barrier. On the Spank rims? I measured these Cannonball tires out at 50.17mm in width. Whoa! Would they fit the Black Mountain Cycles MCD? I slapped on the rear tire first, because I knew that would be the deciding factor. 

It fit!

For dry use only! There isn't much clearance here!

So, now what? Well, an important factor which I detailed out in the last update on the PWGWv2, (go back to see that via the very first hyperlink in this post), was how a tire's profile can be altered by internal rim width. Too skinny or too wide is too much. How did the Cannonball look? On a 24mm internal width rim, the 700 X 47mm Cannonball was quite rounded. I felt that this was to the tire's detriment on looser surfaces. Now with the Cannonball tires on the 30.5mm internal rim width Spank rims, the profile of the tire is predictably flatter, since as the bead of each side of a tire casing gets further apart, the crown of the profile of the tire flattens out. This occurred beautifully on the Cannonball and I think it is an improvement in this instance. 

From Sunday's ride.

So, what about that Rutland in 47mm width? How do I think that would do? This tire tends to be a flatter crowned tire than the Cannonball, so my guess is that a 30.5mm internal rim width would be too much for that tire. It will flatten the crown profile even further, and that would only take away speed and to some extent, handling. 

My take away here is that the PWGWv2 is 'good' in very limited circumstances. It depends upon the tire used, and those tires have to be wider than 45mm. Also, I do not have the proper bicycle to explore the options that would, perhaps, make even more sense than the Cannonball tires do. I would need a bicycle rated for 29"er X 2.4" tires, minimum, to get everything out of these wheels that is there. At that point, these are not really "wide gravel wheels" anymore, so my conclusion from the last update holds true. 700c rims for gravel bikes probably should be in the 24mm-26mm range for internal rim widths so that they will work on gravel bikes using 700 X 38mm-45mm tires. Wider internal rim widths start to degrade a gravel tire's performance, especially on the lower end of the tire width spectrum, and on the wider end, tires may not fit frames anymore. 

Going forward, I plan on ride testing the PWGWv2 with these Cannonball tires and reporting back with a final word and plans for this wheel set's future. 

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Initial Ride Impressions

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 on the Noble Bikes GX5

 Now that I've gotten past Gravel Worlds and a couple of other things I have been able to - finally - turn my attention back to the PWGWv2. The last update was in early August, which if you care to refresh yourselves on this project, can be seen here. 

Initially I set the rear wheel up as something I could use on my Noble Bikes GX5. That's because of Gravel Worlds and my ongoing review of the WTB CXR Carbon wheel set. Now that Gravel Worlds is over, I eventually am going to swap things around again. But the initial ride was with the Nobel Bikes rig as seen here. 

As far as how these ride? They are smooth! The tires were run at something in the mid-30's for air pressure and the tread, being more flat to the surface, really buzzed and hummed on pavement. But this made them corner like MTB tires on gravel. Pretty amazing, actually. Speed-wise? I think that takes a bit away, but I did not compare any roll-outs or back-to-back tests of wheel sets. And I don't think I will need to go any further with this than I have. Read on for the reasons why.....

I've mentioned before how I was not completely impressed with how the tires set up like on these Spank rims. But, after giving this some thought, I have a reasonable explanation for what has happened here and I think it is telling for anyone else thinking about putting a gravel tire on what amounts to a mountain bike type rim. 

Notice that as you spread out the tire's beads from each other, it draws the crown of the tire downward.

As with anything, 'more' is better to a point, then it becomes a very steeply falling curve toward 'not-so-good'. Such is the case with wider inner rim widths. When road rims were 18mm-20mm wide internally, bigger tires than 25mm would suffer from an excessive amount of 'light bulb effect', especially as you got above 30mm in width for tires. Tire pressure has to be kept higher when tires form such a profile because if the tire isn't rigid enough, it will squirm sideways when side-loaded, especially in curves and when accelerating. As internal rim widths get wider, this spreads each bead of the tire outward, which in turn starts to draw down the crown of the tire until it no longer resembles a light bulb in cross section. 

That's good for tire pressures, comfort, traction, and especially with tubeless tires. But when the bead on each side of a tire gets too far apart due to a very wide inner rim width? Then the tire's crown flattens out too much, it draws inward toward the rim, and the wheel over all will have a shorter diameter. This will affect handling and,to a lesser degree, gearing. It also can increase rolling resistance because the tire patch now is wider than it would be with a narrower inner rim width. Additionally this can affect  how tire sidewalls flex, also contributing to higher rolling resistance and a stiffer ride feel.

So, what is right? Well, I can only speak to my experiences, but I am of the mind that there is no way I would normally run this 700 X 42mm Resolute on this wide a rim. Note- The Spank 359 rims have a 30.5mm inner rim width. Many "gravel" rims are 24mm-26mm inner rim width and - in my opinion - that is about right. At least for 38mm-45mm tires, it is about right. You'll get optimum bead to bead spread and the crown of the tire won't get flattened out too badly, or not at all, since most tires are being designed for rims with that inner rim dimension range. 

Conversely, running less than 38mm wide tires on - let's say 25mm inner rim width rims - is also not optimal. You will begin to get more and more of that same effect I have noticed with my Resolutes the narrower the tire gets. I would say anything 32mm-30mm is borderline not very good at all, and anything less wide than that is ridiculous. But - you know - someone out there is doing it. They will think I am full of it because "it works great for me and has for years!". 

Like always - I say "You do you." I know what all this adds up to for me. 

And that is that Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 has shown me that 30.5mm inner rim width is too wide. (Note- These Spank rims did not make the tires any wider than about 45mm, and on 25mm inner rim width rims they come out to about 44mm anyway and they have a much better profile.) So, now what? Well, a wider tire, that's what! As stated in a previous post on these wheels, I am going to mount some 700 X 47mm Teravails and see how that adds up on these rims, and if that doesn't work? Yeah.......about that......

I probably do not have the right bike for these wheels if that is the case. I'd probably need something like a Fargo, or that new Tumbleweed Bikes Stargazer, but.....those are Boost bikes, and my hubs are not. Bah!  So, I may end up blowing these wheels apart and re-lacing up some Velocity Blunt SS rims I have that are 26.6mm inner rim width. OR I could get some QR end caps for the DT Swiss 350 hubs and make these wheels my Fargo Gen I wheels. I don't know...... Anyway! 

There are a lot of steps to go before I have to worry about the 'end game' for this wheel set. Stay tuned!

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Initial Ride Impressions

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 on the Noble Bikes GX5

 Now that I've gotten past Gravel Worlds and a couple of other things I have been able to - finally - turn my attention back to the PWGWv2. The last update was in early August, which if you care to refresh yourselves on this project, can be seen here. 

Initially I set the rear wheel up as something I could use on my Noble Bikes GX5. That's because of Gravel Worlds and my ongoing review of the WTB CXR Carbon wheel set. Now that Gravel Worlds is over, I eventually am going to swap things around again. But the initial ride was with the Nobel Bikes rig as seen here. 

As far as how these ride? They are smooth! The tires were run at something in the mid-30's for air pressure and the tread, being more flat to the surface, really buzzed and hummed on pavement. But this made them corner like MTB tires on gravel. Pretty amazing, actually. Speed-wise? I think that takes a bit away, but I did not compare any roll-outs or back-to-back tests of wheel sets. And I don't think I will need to go any further with this than I have. Read on for the reasons why.....

I've mentioned before how I was not completely impressed with how the tires set up like on these Spank rims. But, after giving this some thought, I have a reasonable explanation for what has happened here and I think it is telling for anyone else thinking about putting a gravel tire on what amounts to a mountain bike type rim. 

Notice that as you spread out the tire's beads from each other, it draws the crown of the tire downward.

As with anything, 'more' is better to a point, then it becomes a very steeply falling curve toward 'not-so-good'. Such is the case with wider inner rim widths. When road rims were 18mm-20mm wide internally, bigger tires than 25mm would suffer from an excessive amount of 'light bulb effect', especially as you got above 30mm in width for tires. Tire pressure has to be kept higher when tires form such a profile because if the tire isn't rigid enough, it will squirm sideways when side-loaded, especially in curves and when accelerating. As internal rim widths get wider, this spreads each bead of the tire outward, which in turn starts to draw down the crown of the tire until it no longer resembles a light bulb in cross section. 

That's good for tire pressures, comfort, traction, and especially with tubeless tires. But when the bead on each side of a tire gets too far apart due to a very wide inner rim width? Then the tire's crown flattens out too much, it draws inward toward the rim, and the wheel over all will have a shorter diameter. This will affect handling and,to a lesser degree, gearing. It also can increase rolling resistance because the tire patch now is wider than it would be with a narrower inner rim width. Additionally this can affect  how tire sidewalls flex, also contributing to higher rolling resistance and a stiffer ride feel.

So, what is right? Well, I can only speak to my experiences, but I am of the mind that there is no way I would normally run this 700 X 42mm Resolute on this wide a rim. Note- The Spank 359 rims have a 30.5mm inner rim width. Many "gravel" rims are 24mm-26mm inner rim width and - in my opinion - that is about right. At least for 38mm-45mm tires, it is about right. You'll get optimum bead to bead spread and the crown of the tire won't get flattened out too badly, or not at all, since most tires are being designed for rims with that inner rim dimension range. 

Conversely, running less than 38mm wide tires on - let's say 25mm inner rim width rims - is also not optimal. You will begin to get more and more of that same effect I have noticed with my Resolutes the narrower the tire gets. I would say anything 32mm-30mm is borderline not very good at all, and anything less wide than that is ridiculous. But - you know - someone out there is doing it. They will think I am full of it because "it works great for me and has for years!". 

Like always - I say "You do you." I know what all this adds up to for me. 

And that is that Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 has shown me that 30.5mm inner rim width is too wide. (Note- These Spank rims did not make the tires any wider than about 45mm, and on 25mm inner rim width rims they come out to about 44mm anyway and they have a much better profile.) So, now what? Well, a wider tire, that's what! As stated in a previous post on these wheels, I am going to mount some 700 X 47mm Teravails and see how that adds up on these rims, and if that doesn't work? Yeah.......about that......

I probably do not have the right bike for these wheels if that is the case. I'd probably need something like a Fargo, or that new Tumbleweed Bikes Stargazer, but.....those are Boost bikes, and my hubs are not. Bah!  So, I may end up blowing these wheels apart and re-lacing up some Velocity Blunt SS rims I have that are 26.6mm inner rim width. OR I could get some QR end caps for the DT Swiss 350 hubs and make these wheels my Fargo Gen I wheels. I don't know...... Anyway! 

There are a lot of steps to go before I have to worry about the 'end game' for this wheel set. Stay tuned!

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Update

 Okay, it's been a while since my last update and I wanted to bring this up to speed with those who may have been wondering what is up on the PWGWv2 thing. My last update was directly after I got the wheels built and tires mounted which you can go back and see if you want by clicking this link. 

First off- a correction: I mentioned that the Resolute tires looked narrower than the ones on my Spinergy GX wheels. Well, that was because those tires on the Spinergy wheels were NOT Resolutes! They are the very similar looking Teravail Rutland 700 X 47mm tires! Those were covered in gravel dust and so I didn't see the patch on the side wall telling me they weren't WTB tires. My bad. Sorry for any confusion that may have caused. 

Secondly, the Resolutes I put on the Spank rims went on with much difficulty. Not so much in the initial mounting, but in seating the bead into the bead socket of the rim. See, Spank uses a sort of serrated bead socket designed to hold the tire there when you choose to ride with low pressures. That in turn makes the bead not want to sit into the side of the bead socket so well. I had a devil of a time seating the tire correctly, and since then I have noted something else which I believe is related to that rim's bead socket feature. 

The Resolutes now measure at right at about 45mm. A full 3mm wider than they should. At first, that was not the case. They measured around 43+mm. I think the beads are now pushed outward all the way and that in turn has given me the results I was hoping for here. Anyway, I still haven't ridden the dang things yet! 

That's because I have had a few other things in the hopper to do first. And....it may be a while before I get to this. Gravel Worlds has taken priority now and doing anything else with wheels and tires is off the radar for the time being. But that said, I have gotten the front hub converted to 12mm through axle and these wheels are ready to go right now. I'll be getting them ridden as soon as I can. 

I'll likely also be swapping over the Teravail 47mm tires at some point to see what these rims do to those tires, and afterward if they will fit anything I own! The only bike that has a chance is the Black Mountain Cycles MCD, I reckon. So, stay tuned! More on this project will be coming soon and after many miles, an analysis of what I think about such a wide rim on a gravel bike.

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Update

 Okay, it's been a while since my last update and I wanted to bring this up to speed with those who may have been wondering what is up on the PWGWv2 thing. My last update was directly after I got the wheels built and tires mounted which you can go back and see if you want by clicking this link. 

First off- a correction: I mentioned that the Resolute tires looked narrower than the ones on my Spinergy GX wheels. Well, that was because those tires on the Spinergy wheels were NOT Resolutes! They are the very similar looking Teravail Rutland 700 X 47mm tires! Those were covered in gravel dust and so I didn't see the patch on the side wall telling me they weren't WTB tires. My bad. Sorry for any confusion that may have caused. 

Secondly, the Resolutes I put on the Spank rims went on with much difficulty. Not so much in the initial mounting, but in seating the bead into the bead socket of the rim. See, Spank uses a sort of serrated bead socket designed to hold the tire there when you choose to ride with low pressures. That in turn makes the bead not want to sit into the side of the bead socket so well. I had a devil of a time seating the tire correctly, and since then I have noted something else which I believe is related to that rim's bead socket feature. 

The Resolutes now measure at right at about 45mm. A full 3mm wider than they should. At first, that was not the case. They measured around 43+mm. I think the beads are now pushed outward all the way and that in turn has given me the results I was hoping for here. Anyway, I still haven't ridden the dang things yet! 

That's because I have had a few other things in the hopper to do first. And....it may be a while before I get to this. Gravel Worlds has taken priority now and doing anything else with wheels and tires is off the radar for the time being. But that said, I have gotten the front hub converted to 12mm through axle and these wheels are ready to go right now. I'll be getting them ridden as soon as I can. 

I'll likely also be swapping over the Teravail 47mm tires at some point to see what these rims do to those tires, and afterward if they will fit anything I own! The only bike that has a chance is the Black Mountain Cycles MCD, I reckon. So, stay tuned! More on this project will be coming soon and after many miles, an analysis of what I think about such a wide rim on a gravel bike.

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Built And Tires Mounted!

Almost there....

Over the long holiday weekend I managed to get the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 completed. Then I mounted up some tires and got to mounting rotors and a cassette. One small detail has prevented me from getting them on a bike yet. 

First, the wheel build; It went well, even though I had to use those spoke washers, which made things a bit more fussy, but I managed the task. I only dropped one washer inside the rim well too! The Spank 359 rims built up well and I had no issues bringing the wheels up to tension or with having to chase any out of round condition on either rim. You never know with rims that have been sitting around a while. One drop, or ding and you can find yourself having a lot more difficult time with a wheel build. 

The only other thing worth noting is that Spank specifies a slightly lower maximum spoke tension than maybe some people think that they need. I have never subscribed to maxing out the spoke tension on a new wheel build anyway, so I was fine with the limitation. Again, everything went super-smooth with that aspect of the build and I had zero trouble with the way Spank made this rim. 

Once that was over with it was on to mounting tires. Tubeless, of course! The choice of tire was somewhat in question right up until I got the wheel set built. I had done some scrounging around for another reason and saw that I had a pair of used WTB Resolutes in pretty good condition. These are listed as 42mm tires and often come out slightly wider than that on many wheel sets. So, this seemed like a decent tire to try to see what would happen. Furthermore; I have another set of Resolutes set up on Spinergy GX wheels to compare to. So the Resolutes were chosen based on those reasons. 

The taping was super easy, despite the Spank 359's having a mid-rim well 'hump' instead of a "U" shape. In fact, I thought that the hump shaped rim well was actually easier to tape. I then mounted the Resolutes, and despite their being used, and therefor probably stretched somewhat, they fit super-tight! I used some Stan's sealant and they aired up with a floor pump. Easy-peasy. 

So.....how do the tires look on there? Well, I had a big surprise. On the Spinergy GX rims, the Reso's are actually wider than they are on the Spank rims. Not by just a wee bit either, you can visibly see the difference. The tire on the 359's squats out a bit, making it less rounded in profile and 'shorter', meaning that the diameter over all is affected. I suspect that with the beads sitting further apart on the Spank rims that I will get away with running lower pressures, but there is that chance that I get too low and bang the rim bead on the inside of the tire casing over a big bump. Maybe the psi differences will be somewhat nullified by this? That will have to be tested later. 

And finally- Somehow it escaped me that the front hub has 15mm end caps. Doh! So, I need to order some 12mm caps and then I can complete the process of the wheel build and mount these to a bicycle. Stay tuned...........

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Built And Tires Mounted!

Almost there....

Over the long holiday weekend I managed to get the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 completed. Then I mounted up some tires and got to mounting rotors and a cassette. One small detail has prevented me from getting them on a bike yet. 

First, the wheel build; It went well, even though I had to use those spoke washers, which made things a bit more fussy, but I managed the task. I only dropped one washer inside the rim well too! The Spank 359 rims built up well and I had no issues bringing the wheels up to tension or with having to chase any out of round condition on either rim. You never know with rims that have been sitting around a while. One drop, or ding and you can find yourself having a lot more difficult time with a wheel build. 

The only other thing worth noting is that Spank specifies a slightly lower maximum spoke tension than maybe some people think that they need. I have never subscribed to maxing out the spoke tension on a new wheel build anyway, so I was fine with the limitation. Again, everything went super-smooth with that aspect of the build and I had zero trouble with the way Spank made this rim. 

Once that was over with it was on to mounting tires. Tubeless, of course! The choice of tire was somewhat in question right up until I got the wheel set built. I had done some scrounging around for another reason and saw that I had a pair of used WTB Resolutes in pretty good condition. These are listed as 42mm tires and often come out slightly wider than that on many wheel sets. So, this seemed like a decent tire to try to see what would happen. Furthermore; I have another set of Resolutes set up on Spinergy GX wheels to compare to. So the Resolutes were chosen based on those reasons. 

The taping was super easy, despite the Spank 359's having a mid-rim well 'hump' instead of a "U" shape. In fact, I thought that the hump shaped rim well was actually easier to tape. I then mounted the Resolutes, and despite their being used, and therefor probably stretched somewhat, they fit super-tight! I used some Stan's sealant and they aired up with a floor pump. Easy-peasy. 

So.....how do the tires look on there? Well, I had a big surprise. On the Spinergy GX rims, the Reso's are actually wider than they are on the Spank rims. Not by just a wee bit either, you can visibly see the difference. The tire on the 359's squats out a bit, making it less rounded in profile and 'shorter', meaning that the diameter over all is affected. I suspect that with the beads sitting further apart on the Spank rims that I will get away with running lower pressures, but there is that chance that I get too low and bang the rim bead on the inside of the tire casing over a big bump. Maybe the psi differences will be somewhat nullified by this? That will have to be tested later. 

And finally- Somehow it escaped me that the front hub has 15mm end caps. Doh! So, I need to order some 12mm caps and then I can complete the process of the wheel build and mount these to a bicycle. Stay tuned...........

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Update On Build

The rear wheel is built and awaits final tensioning.

 Just a quick update on the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 build. I thought you all might want to know how this is all shaping up so far.

The Spank 359 rims are made in such a way that they require spoke washers. These little discs of doom are a total pain in the butt to deal with, but if I don't use them I risk having the wheels explode due to nipples pulling through the rim extrusion. Not good! So, the pain in the butt process is necessary and patience while building these up is the key. Trying not to drop a spoke washer in the inner rim cavity is not easy, and when you do, you have to shake the rim like you are peppering your favorite recipe until, hopefully sooner than later, the thing pops out and falls to the floor. Fortunately that only happened once so far! 

Ironically, I am getting even more practice with spoke washers at work, since I have a job building up a set of DT Swiss rims on a customer's hubs that also requires spoke washers. The only difference is that DT Swiss' spoke washers are curved- concave/convex, and must be inserted in the correct orientation, making the job even more tedious! When it rains it pours, right? But at least I have work, so I am grateful. 

Anyway, the rims, again which were gifted to me by a former co-worker of mine, came with the spoke washers, but not enough to do both rims. So, I did not realize this until I started building the wheel. I hadn't cracked open the package they had come to me in, so I did not know how many I had to begin with. I immediately hopped online and found what I needed at Jenson USA and the parts (I ordered extra silver brass spoke nipples as well), should be here by the weekend. Okay, with that out of the way.....

I should mention again that Spank highly recommends that you use butted spokes and I suppose that is because these types of spokes will flex easier than straight gauge ones do, and that plays into the 'vertical compliance' claim Spank makes for these rims. Well, as it turned out, I had all butted spokes for this set on hand, so in the end, it will be what Spank recommends. I had at first thought I was going to used a mixed straight/butted gauge set. 

Besides all of that, and the extra time incurred by using spoke washers, this wheel built up really nicely. I hope that the front one goes as well as this one has. Once I get this wheel set done I will dive into wheel set number two for this project using some Stan's Neo hubs laced to Velocity Blunt SS rims. Stay tuned......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2: Update On Build

The rear wheel is built and awaits final tensioning.

 Just a quick update on the Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2 build. I thought you all might want to know how this is all shaping up so far.

The Spank 359 rims are made in such a way that they require spoke washers. These little discs of doom are a total pain in the butt to deal with, but if I don't use them I risk having the wheels explode due to nipples pulling through the rim extrusion. Not good! So, the pain in the butt process is necessary and patience while building these up is the key. Trying not to drop a spoke washer in the inner rim cavity is not easy, and when you do, you have to shake the rim like you are peppering your favorite recipe until, hopefully sooner than later, the thing pops out and falls to the floor. Fortunately that only happened once so far! 

Ironically, I am getting even more practice with spoke washers at work, since I have a job building up a set of DT Swiss rims on a customer's hubs that also requires spoke washers. The only difference is that DT Swiss' spoke washers are curved- concave/convex, and must be inserted in the correct orientation, making the job even more tedious! When it rains it pours, right? But at least I have work, so I am grateful. 

Anyway, the rims, again which were gifted to me by a former co-worker of mine, came with the spoke washers, but not enough to do both rims. So, I did not realize this until I started building the wheel. I hadn't cracked open the package they had come to me in, so I did not know how many I had to begin with. I immediately hopped online and found what I needed at Jenson USA and the parts (I ordered extra silver brass spoke nipples as well), should be here by the weekend. Okay, with that out of the way.....

I should mention again that Spank highly recommends that you use butted spokes and I suppose that is because these types of spokes will flex easier than straight gauge ones do, and that plays into the 'vertical compliance' claim Spank makes for these rims. Well, as it turned out, I had all butted spokes for this set on hand, so in the end, it will be what Spank recommends. I had at first thought I was going to used a mixed straight/butted gauge set. 

Besides all of that, and the extra time incurred by using spoke washers, this wheel built up really nicely. I hope that the front one goes as well as this one has. Once I get this wheel set done I will dive into wheel set number two for this project using some Stan's Neo hubs laced to Velocity Blunt SS rims. Stay tuned......