Could The Fargo Gen 1 Be Replaced? - Part 2

Black Mountain Cycles La Cabra- Unobtanium until further notice.

Last Thursday I posted a thought piece concerning choices for replacement of the Gen I Fargo- (as if!)- and I suggested two possibilities. Well, you dear readers sent in a bunch of comments, and as always, instead of answering in the comments where pretty much most folks will never look, I decided there was enough to warrant a "Part 2" on this subject. I will address each point brought up briefly, and in no particular order.

Concerning Kona's Steel: One comment I got which I thought was extremely interesting was the thought that Kona had done their best frame/fork work on their first generation Sutra LTD's and then things got progressively worse in terms of frame ride quality and steel choices. This can be a really complex subject, so I am just going to breeze through a few thoughts, because I could write a few posts about steel frames alone here. (And I probably have over the 15 years of this blog, come to think of it)

Steel frames, in general, are not well understood. There is a fair amount of "cork sniffery" when it comes to steel: "Reynolds is best! No! Columbus! Bzzzzt! Wrong!The best is Tange Prestige!" On and on........

The reality of 4130 CRMo and its variants is that there are so many butted profiles available that they are too hard to list. Steel tubing has been around in one form or another since the mid-19th Century and bicycles were made of the stuff since almost the beginning of the two wheeler. Some companies have made a lot of hay in regard to fans and claims of certain magical qualities. The thing is, if you know your way around designing a frame, you can source tubing that - if constructed correctly- would kill the ride feel of any name brand frame tubing. It happens all the time. But if- say, True Temper is your jam, well then......you go! I'm just saying that no one famous name tubing brand has anything over any good, butted, well put together frame. Even production frames can ride better than custom ones do if things are done right/wrong.

The Singular Gryphon from around 2009. It rode GREAT, but had low versatility

Finally, over the past 15 years, certain required tests for the sale of frames world-wide has pretty much killed the ride quality of steel frames now compared to 'then'. Take the El Mariachi. When the '07'to '09 design was discontinued, Salsa Cycles went to a new tubing for the El Mar. The result was a stiffer, more lifeless ride. Same with the Fargo. Even other companies steel frames were beefed up to pass testing and as a result, ended up losing that magical ride feel. So, it makes sense to me that "first efforts" in steel frames don't measure up to later model ones since this process seems to still be in effect where steel frames are being over-built to pass arbitrary testing protocols.

Suspension Correction vs Stem Spacers, Long Head Tubes, and High Rise Stems: You need to get somewhere and you have two ways to do it- One route works, and so does the other, but there are certain differences to consider which may influence why that you take one over the other. Scenery, times, stress levels, construction, etc. Well, how you do your fork/head tube/stem set up for a bike is pretty much the same deal.

Long head tube/short stack/low rise stem, or how about a short fork, short head tube, a really high rise stem, and maybe quite a few spacers? Both bikes could have exactly the same handle bar position in space. It's how you get there, and what matters about that, which matters to any individual rider. Some reasons for one against the other may have to do with aesthetics. Personally, I think a suspension corrected rigid fork, which would be the same length as a 100mm travel suspension fork, (corrected length to match a suspension fork's axle to crown height, make sense?), looks goofy, unless you actually use a suspension fork there from time to time. Others may have no issues with that look. But also- consider that this longer than usual fork on a MTB has to pass those MTB tests. That means that all that tubing length that could give you an awesome ride now has been beefed up to pass a test and rides like a dead piece of wood compared to a shorter, rigid fork like the Gryphon, shown above, which probably had the liveliest, best riding, (and weakest), rigid fork I have ridden.

Kinda short fork, short head tube, tall stem. Just one way to get there.

So, it's a little more than what you are seeing. Those longer rigid forks come with compromises. Longer head tubes have longer steer tubes, of course, so those tubes, especially if they are straight gauge, flex more and feel smoother. Shorter head tubes with short steer tubes have a stiffer feel. Carbon forks? Well, that's another factor on top of all the rest.

Fork Trail & Wheel Flop: Someone asked about the Kona Sutra and its 69.5° head tube angle and 55mm offset fork in regard to handling. Well, it depends upon the tire you use. Bigger volume 700c tires will increase trail, but with a 45mm gravel tire, the trail is in the 70's, which isn't crazy. Even with a 55mm tire, it is only 80mm. I wouldn't fret about it........

V/O Piolet: I've looked at this bike a lot. Someone said they replaced their Gen I Fargo with one. Nice bike- lateral move. Doesn't really do anything different for me over what I've got already.

Mone El Continante: Another bike I've drooled over. Stunning rig. Probably a cool bike. 29+ though and I'm not real sure about the sliding frame bits. That looks like a part begging to seize up and/or make noises. One man operation..... Meh. Too many what-ifs there.

Black Mountain Cycles LaCabra: One of you called it "the elephant in the room", which made me laugh out loud. Look......it isn't currently a bike you can even get. But let's say that Mike Varley gets it done and brings these in. Would that bike be a bike I could replace a Fargo Gen I with? Certainly, it very well could do just that. I've already said I'd like one.

But with things going the way that they are, who knows? I don't. Mike may not even know. Everything is different now, so the LaCabra may end up being a pipe dream, or I may end up with one next year. If I do- I will set it up with 650B X 2.8" tires and run with that first. As I stated back in early April, this LaCabra would be the fat, 650B bike and my rigid MTB. My current Fargo would be the 700c option.

And that's that for this subject. Thanks for all the comments!

Could The Fargo Gen 1 Be Replaced? - Part 2

Black Mountain Cycles La Cabra- Unobtanium until further notice.

Last Thursday I posted a thought piece concerning choices for replacement of the Gen I Fargo- (as if!)- and I suggested two possibilities. Well, you dear readers sent in a bunch of comments, and as always, instead of answering in the comments where pretty much most folks will never look, I decided there was enough to warrant a "Part 2" on this subject. I will address each point brought up briefly, and in no particular order.

Concerning Kona's Steel: One comment I got which I thought was extremely interesting was the thought that Kona had done their best frame/fork work on their first generation Sutra LTD's and then things got progressively worse in terms of frame ride quality and steel choices. This can be a really complex subject, so I am just going to breeze through a few thoughts, because I could write a few posts about steel frames alone here. (And I probably have over the 15 years of this blog, come to think of it)

Steel frames, in general, are not well understood. There is a fair amount of "cork sniffery" when it comes to steel: "Reynolds is best! No! Columbus! Bzzzzt! Wrong!The best is Tange Prestige!" On and on........

The reality of 4130 CRMo and its variants is that there are so many butted profiles available that they are too hard to list. Steel tubing has been around in one form or another since the mid-19th Century and bicycles were made of the stuff since almost the beginning of the two wheeler. Some companies have made a lot of hay in regard to fans and claims of certain magical qualities. The thing is, if you know your way around designing a frame, you can source tubing that - if constructed correctly- would kill the ride feel of any name brand frame tubing. It happens all the time. But if- say, True Temper is your jam, well then......you go! I'm just saying that no one famous name tubing brand has anything over any good, butted, well put together frame. Even production frames can ride better than custom ones do if things are done right/wrong.

The Singular Gryphon from around 2009. It rode GREAT, but had low versatility

Finally, over the past 15 years, certain required tests for the sale of frames world-wide has pretty much killed the ride quality of steel frames now compared to 'then'. Take the El Mariachi. When the '07'to '09 design was discontinued, Salsa Cycles went to a new tubing for the El Mar. The result was a stiffer, more lifeless ride. Same with the Fargo. Even other companies steel frames were beefed up to pass testing and as a result, ended up losing that magical ride feel. So, it makes sense to me that "first efforts" in steel frames don't measure up to later model ones since this process seems to still be in effect where steel frames are being over-built to pass arbitrary testing protocols.

Suspension Correction vs Stem Spacers, Long Head Tubes, and High Rise Stems: You need to get somewhere and you have two ways to do it- One route works, and so does the other, but there are certain differences to consider which may influence why that you take one over the other. Scenery, times, stress levels, construction, etc. Well, how you do your fork/head tube/stem set up for a bike is pretty much the same deal.

Long head tube/short stack/low rise stem, or how about a short fork, short head tube, a really high rise stem, and maybe quite a few spacers? Both bikes could have exactly the same handle bar position in space. It's how you get there, and what matters about that, which matters to any individual rider. Some reasons for one against the other may have to do with aesthetics. Personally, I think a suspension corrected rigid fork, which would be the same length as a 100mm travel suspension fork, (corrected length to match a suspension fork's axle to crown height, make sense?), looks goofy, unless you actually use a suspension fork there from time to time. Others may have no issues with that look. But also- consider that this longer than usual fork on a MTB has to pass those MTB tests. That means that all that tubing length that could give you an awesome ride now has been beefed up to pass a test and rides like a dead piece of wood compared to a shorter, rigid fork like the Gryphon, shown above, which probably had the liveliest, best riding, (and weakest), rigid fork I have ridden.

Kinda short fork, short head tube, tall stem. Just one way to get there.

So, it's a little more than what you are seeing. Those longer rigid forks come with compromises. Longer head tubes have longer steer tubes, of course, so those tubes, especially if they are straight gauge, flex more and feel smoother. Shorter head tubes with short steer tubes have a stiffer feel. Carbon forks? Well, that's another factor on top of all the rest.

Fork Trail & Wheel Flop: Someone asked about the Kona Sutra and its 69.5° head tube angle and 55mm offset fork in regard to handling. Well, it depends upon the tire you use. Bigger volume 700c tires will increase trail, but with a 45mm gravel tire, the trail is in the 70's, which isn't crazy. Even with a 55mm tire, it is only 80mm. I wouldn't fret about it........

V/O Piolet: I've looked at this bike a lot. Someone said they replaced their Gen I Fargo with one. Nice bike- lateral move. Doesn't really do anything different for me over what I've got already.

Mone El Continante: Another bike I've drooled over. Stunning rig. Probably a cool bike. 29+ though and I'm not real sure about the sliding frame bits. That looks like a part begging to seize up and/or make noises. One man operation..... Meh. Too many what-ifs there.

Black Mountain Cycles LaCabra: One of you called it "the elephant in the room", which made me laugh out loud. Look......it isn't currently a bike you can even get. But let's say that Mike Varley gets it done and brings these in. Would that bike be a bike I could replace a Fargo Gen I with? Certainly, it very well could do just that. I've already said I'd like one.

But with things going the way that they are, who knows? I don't. Mike may not even know. Everything is different now, so the LaCabra may end up being a pipe dream, or I may end up with one next year. If I do- I will set it up with 650B X 2.8" tires and run with that first. As I stated back in early April, this LaCabra would be the fat, 650B bike and my rigid MTB. My current Fargo would be the 700c option.

And that's that for this subject. Thanks for all the comments!

Minus Ten Review- 35

Tomatilla Green. I miss this color scheme.

Ten years ago on the blog I was running through a series I called "Materials Of Choice" where I researched all the materials commonly used in cycling. It was pretty enlightening. I actually learned quite a bit by doing it and it became one of the most popular revisited set of posts on my blog for quite a while.

The last post of the week was concerning all the great 29"er news coming out of Eurobike in 2007. At the time, this seemed rather ironic since Europeans were rather cool, (and to some degree still are) concerning the big wheeled bicycles. They were still all about 26"ers back then. So it was a bit puzzling at the time.

Now with the benefit of ten years of perspective, it was really all about how Eurobike was rising in prominence as the show where companies and brands showed off the newest goods first. Interbike was never quite the same after that. Of course, things are still changing, and now with so many people on mobile wifi connections, it is at a tipping point to where it seems a digital launch on news and innovations is really the focus now. The flip side is the dealer only/traveling demo truck shows which aim more at hands on, grassroots marketing. Anyway.....

Ten years ago it was cool to find out more tires were coming out, and rims, and forks. 29"ers were starting their takeover of 26"er mountain bike categories. Those were some exciting days for the 29'er fans.

Minus Ten Review- 35

Tomatilla Green. I miss this color scheme.

Ten years ago on the blog I was running through a series I called "Materials Of Choice" where I researched all the materials commonly used in cycling. It was pretty enlightening. I actually learned quite a bit by doing it and it became one of the most popular revisited set of posts on my blog for quite a while.

The last post of the week was concerning all the great 29"er news coming out of Eurobike in 2007. At the time, this seemed rather ironic since Europeans were rather cool, (and to some degree still are) concerning the big wheeled bicycles. They were still all about 26"ers back then. So it was a bit puzzling at the time.

Now with the benefit of ten years of perspective, it was really all about how Eurobike was rising in prominence as the show where companies and brands showed off the newest goods first. Interbike was never quite the same after that. Of course, things are still changing, and now with so many people on mobile wifi connections, it is at a tipping point to where it seems a digital launch on news and innovations is really the focus now. The flip side is the dealer only/traveling demo truck shows which aim more at hands on, grassroots marketing. Anyway.....

Ten years ago it was cool to find out more tires were coming out, and rims, and forks. 29"ers were starting their takeover of 26"er mountain bike categories. Those were some exciting days for the 29'er fans.

Thinking About The "Rat Bike"

 A Raleigh Willard One at the shop where I work

Okay, if you've been poking around here for a while you already know what I think a "gravel bike" should be like. Not that you should have one like it, but it's been my ideal, if you will, cogitated over many, many miles of gravel and experiences over the years. That said, my ramblings struck a nerve with some folks and in another stunning turn of events, Raleigh actually took some of my ideas and turned them into the Tamland. Then they went and switched the frame and fork materials, spec'ed the bike differently to some degree, and called it the Willard.

Now, when I found out about the aluminum framed, carbon fiber forked Willard, two thoughts immediately jumped into my head- One was that my high school sweetheart's Dad was named Willard. The other was the movie by the same name. If you are familiar with that movie, you know it is a horror flick about killer rats. In my mind, (admittedly, a twisted mass of neurons), the Raleigh Willard is "The Rat Bike". Well, that's my own issue, and not what I was wanting to get into here, so......

The Ra.....er.....Willard Two!

Al-yoo-min-yum. The material chosen to construct the two models of the Willard from, is an interesting choice here. Sure.....lots of lesser expensive road bikes share this material, but they are not going on the "paint shaker-like" surfaces we ride on out here, in general. That alloy stuff has a reputation, ya know, and it may not be true, but many feel that aluminum is a rough riding frame material. I don't think that it necessarily has to be that way, but if you've ever noticed, many companies are not flouting a "compliant aluminum alloy frame" in their marketing materials. I suppose that's got more to do with that aforementioned "reputation" that aluminum has than anything else. That said, I'd like to put my suspicions to rest and see if this, or some other aluminum frame might actually be a nice riding frame set. 

I know- lots of you out there are thinking this is a stupid thing. No way an aluminum frame rides nicely in the same or similar manner as a steel or carbon frame can, right? Well, I am thinking it is a possibility, and maybe, just maybe, this here  Raleigh number can do it. If not the Willard, why couldn't it be another aluminum frame? I mean, look how much an air frame flexes, fer cryin' out loud. I would think someone could figure out how to make a bicycle frame in aluminum do that. Oh wait.......they already did. Vitus anyone?

Anyway, just some crazy thinking around these parts for today. Nuthin' unusual!

Bonus: Here's a cool video I received from a French manufacturer that is pushing the gravel scene in France

Thinking About The "Rat Bike"

 A Raleigh Willard One at the shop where I work

Okay, if you've been poking around here for a while you already know what I think a "gravel bike" should be like. Not that you should have one like it, but it's been my ideal, if you will, cogitated over many, many miles of gravel and experiences over the years. That said, my ramblings struck a nerve with some folks and in another stunning turn of events, Raleigh actually took some of my ideas and turned them into the Tamland. Then they went and switched the frame and fork materials, spec'ed the bike differently to some degree, and called it the Willard.

Now, when I found out about the aluminum framed, carbon fiber forked Willard, two thoughts immediately jumped into my head- One was that my high school sweetheart's Dad was named Willard. The other was the movie by the same name. If you are familiar with that movie, you know it is a horror flick about killer rats. In my mind, (admittedly, a twisted mass of neurons), the Raleigh Willard is "The Rat Bike". Well, that's my own issue, and not what I was wanting to get into here, so......

The Ra.....er.....Willard Two!

Al-yoo-min-yum. The material chosen to construct the two models of the Willard from, is an interesting choice here. Sure.....lots of lesser expensive road bikes share this material, but they are not going on the "paint shaker-like" surfaces we ride on out here, in general. That alloy stuff has a reputation, ya know, and it may not be true, but many feel that aluminum is a rough riding frame material. I don't think that it necessarily has to be that way, but if you've ever noticed, many companies are not flouting a "compliant aluminum alloy frame" in their marketing materials. I suppose that's got more to do with that aforementioned "reputation" that aluminum has than anything else. That said, I'd like to put my suspicions to rest and see if this, or some other aluminum frame might actually be a nice riding frame set. 

I know- lots of you out there are thinking this is a stupid thing. No way an aluminum frame rides nicely in the same or similar manner as a steel or carbon frame can, right? Well, I am thinking it is a possibility, and maybe, just maybe, this here  Raleigh number can do it. If not the Willard, why couldn't it be another aluminum frame? I mean, look how much an air frame flexes, fer cryin' out loud. I would think someone could figure out how to make a bicycle frame in aluminum do that. Oh wait.......they already did. Vitus anyone?

Anyway, just some crazy thinking around these parts for today. Nuthin' unusual!

Bonus: Here's a cool video I received from a French manufacturer that is pushing the gravel scene in France