Announcing Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2

A Pair of Spank 359 rims walked into the door Friday for this project.

 Back about five years ago now, I started a project to explore what a wider inner rim width might do for a set of gravel grinding wheels. I called it "Project Wide Gravel Wheels". (I know- what a genius name for a project, right? )

Anyway, probably six months after I launched those wheels out into the countryside a lot of wheel manufacturers were touting 24mm inner rim widths. Mine were 25mm, but the point is, my "wide gravel rims" were now ordinary. Hrrrumpf! 

Not that I cared that much. In fact, I was pleased to see it after my experimenting with 25mm inner rim width went really well. So, this was seemingly spot on. The industry seemed to go ahead with 24mm being at least something of a standard, but then things crept up wider. First it was 25mm, now I am seeing 26mm inner rim width. Hmm......

You all know I've been searching for some rims to match up with my DT Swiss hubs. Well, parts, as you all must realize by now, are near-non-existent. I had my eye on some Velocity Blunt SS rims, to be honest, and those are on back-order for me still. Those push the limits at 26.6mm inner rim width. So that is why I wanted to go there with my next wheel build. However; I got a text message late Thursday from a former co-worker and he informed me that he happened to have a brand new set of rims- 28 hole drilling- and he was willing to gift them to me for this wheel project. Thanks Craig!! 

Okay- so you got some MTB rims? Yes. See, this is part of my point with this trend toward wide internal dimensions for gravel. We already are using MTB rims! Look at what passed for MTB rims ten years ago. They were what we use now for gravel bikes. So, why not try something outrageous? I figured that the Velocity rims I was trying to get would be that, but these Spank 359 rims are truly outrageous! 

So, this project will really be a "Wide Gravel Wheel"  since the inner rim width will be a eye-popping 30.5mm wide! Ha! I doubt that the bicycle industry will quickly follow suit on that! I dare them to! So, at any rate, I aim to find out just what this crazy wide inner rim width will do, (other than the obvious), and I figure worse case scenario I just run 700 X 47-50mm tires on this wheel set. 

The hubs are black, the rims are black, and I am going with my "Guitar Ted Signature Spoke Set" which is all black spokes with silver nipples on one side of the wheel and all silver spokes and black nipples on the other half. By the way, the OG Project Wide Gravel Wheels were laced like that. Anyway, stay tuned! This should come together rather quickly now that I have parts in hand.

Announcing Project Wide Gravel Wheels v2

A Pair of Spank 359 rims walked into the door Friday for this project.

 Back about five years ago now, I started a project to explore what a wider inner rim width might do for a set of gravel grinding wheels. I called it "Project Wide Gravel Wheels". (I know- what a genius name for a project, right? )

Anyway, probably six months after I launched those wheels out into the countryside a lot of wheel manufacturers were touting 24mm inner rim widths. Mine were 25mm, but the point is, my "wide gravel rims" were now ordinary. Hrrrumpf! 

Not that I cared that much. In fact, I was pleased to see it after my experimenting with 25mm inner rim width went really well. So, this was seemingly spot on. The industry seemed to go ahead with 24mm being at least something of a standard, but then things crept up wider. First it was 25mm, now I am seeing 26mm inner rim width. Hmm......

You all know I've been searching for some rims to match up with my DT Swiss hubs. Well, parts, as you all must realize by now, are near-non-existent. I had my eye on some Velocity Blunt SS rims, to be honest, and those are on back-order for me still. Those push the limits at 26.6mm inner rim width. So that is why I wanted to go there with my next wheel build. However; I got a text message late Thursday from a former co-worker and he informed me that he happened to have a brand new set of rims- 28 hole drilling- and he was willing to gift them to me for this wheel project. Thanks Craig!! 

Okay- so you got some MTB rims? Yes. See, this is part of my point with this trend toward wide internal dimensions for gravel. We already are using MTB rims! Look at what passed for MTB rims ten years ago. They were what we use now for gravel bikes. So, why not try something outrageous? I figured that the Velocity rims I was trying to get would be that, but these Spank 359 rims are truly outrageous! 

So, this project will really be a "Wide Gravel Wheel"  since the inner rim width will be a eye-popping 30.5mm wide! Ha! I doubt that the bicycle industry will quickly follow suit on that! I dare them to! So, at any rate, I aim to find out just what this crazy wide inner rim width will do, (other than the obvious), and I figure worse case scenario I just run 700 X 47-50mm tires on this wheel set. 

The hubs are black, the rims are black, and I am going with my "Guitar Ted Signature Spoke Set" which is all black spokes with silver nipples on one side of the wheel and all silver spokes and black nipples on the other half. By the way, the OG Project Wide Gravel Wheels were laced like that. Anyway, stay tuned! This should come together rather quickly now that I have parts in hand.

When More Is Too Much

Are inner rim widths getting out of hand?

 Wheels are an interesting subject. We've been doing a lot with regard to wheels on RidingGravel.com this year which has prompted me to take a closer look at trends for 'gravel' wheels and I have noticed something that concerns me. Are we getting to the point where our wheels have unnecessarily wide internal rim widths? My opinion is that the answer to that question is 'yes', and here is why........

Ten to twelve years ago, a decently wide trail bike rim for a 700c based mountain bike was about 28mm-30mm overall width. Note- we didn't ever think about rims in terms of inner rim width. That came about when carbon rims had to have wider rim bead/wall dimensions to withstand the beating the rims might undergo in use on mountain bikes. That made outer rim dimensions meaningless. So, we flipped to talking about inner rim dimensions. So, back in the day, how wide internally were those old trail rims? That is what we need to look at first. Here are some actual measurements of some older popular trail and XC 29"er rims.

• Bontrager Race Lite wheels- 18.5mm
• Bontrager Rhythm Wheels - 21mm
• Stans Flow rims - 21.5mm

Are you surprised? I was. These old mountain bike rim designs would be shot down in a heartbeat on a forum dedicated to gravel wheels. For further context, keep in mind that any good suspended trail 29'er back then was running Stans Flow rims. "Wide" mountain bike rims were maybe 30-35mm in overall dimensions back then, which in aluminum would have yielded an inner width of about 26mm-30mm maximum. 

Also keep in mind that things in the MTB world haven't changed all that much. Look up any decent XC hard tail and check the rim spec. 23mm or so internal rim widths are common, and for a full on trail bike? You are looking at around 30mm internal rim widths. Okay? What about current trends in gravel wheels?

This is interesting to note. Four years ago, I did a wheel build as a project for RidingGravel.com called "Project Wide Gravel Wheels", and for those wheels I used, what I thought of as then being, a ridiculously wide inner rim width of 25mm. Now given all of the above information, you might see why I was thinking that way. In 2016, a twenty-five millimeter inner rim width for gravel was unheard of. 

Project Wide Gravel Wheels used a 25mm inner rim width.

Since then, inner rim widths for 'gravel' category bikes has been creeping upward. 24mm is probably average now with some (FLO Cycling G700, which I recently tested) being 25mm and now we're seeing 26mm inner rim width being pushed as a 'gravel' wheel idea. Granted, materials technology advancements have allowed this to occur without the negatives of weight being an issue, but things are beginning to get out of hand, in my opinion. 

First off, when do we start calling these wheels mountain bike wheels? I'd say we're pretty much at that point. The Boyd wheels linked here are even marketed as 29" XC rated wheels. And then you've got to wonder how tires are being affected at some point. Width ratios are getting a bit out of whack when you look at the differentials between tire overall width vs. inner rim width. Consider that the Bontrager Kovee Comp rims, with an inner width of almost 23mm, has a 2.4" maximum tire width rating. Think about that for a minute in comparison to average widths of tires for gravel uses. 

But let's say the Kovee Comp is on the anemic side for XC use. Okay, maybe what? Go to 28mm inner rim width? 30mm? That's still only 3-5mm wider than where we are with current average gravel wheels which are using tires much smaller than an XC MTB will be using. 

Look, I'm not against experimentation and I happen to think about 24mm inner rim width is about 'right' for a gravel tire in the 38mm-45mm width range. I think 22mm is okay for a racing wheel, for sure, where lighter weight and all is paramount. But when we are talking 26mm inner rim widths? Hmm..... Do we really need that, and I have serious doubts that our tires are going to work correctly over that wide a rim if we are talking the sweet spot for gravel travel, which in my mind is still 42-45mm wide. But if you are in the 38mm-40mm tire crowd, that 26mm inner rim width or wider? Uh.....no. I think you've gone past the point of 'good' and your returns are diminished. But maybe that's just me......

When More Is Too Much

Are inner rim widths getting out of hand?

 Wheels are an interesting subject. We've been doing a lot with regard to wheels on RidingGravel.com this year which has prompted me to take a closer look at trends for 'gravel' wheels and I have noticed something that concerns me. Are we getting to the point where our wheels have unnecessarily wide internal rim widths? My opinion is that the answer to that question is 'yes', and here is why........

Ten to twelve years ago, a decently wide trail bike rim for a 700c based mountain bike was about 28mm-30mm overall width. Note- we didn't ever think about rims in terms of inner rim width. That came about when carbon rims had to have wider rim bead/wall dimensions to withstand the beating the rims might undergo in use on mountain bikes. That made outer rim dimensions meaningless. So, we flipped to talking about inner rim dimensions. So, back in the day, how wide internally were those old trail rims? That is what we need to look at first. Here are some actual measurements of some older popular trail and XC 29"er rims.

• Bontrager Race Lite wheels- 18.5mm
• Bontrager Rhythm Wheels - 21mm
• Stans Flow rims - 21.5mm

Are you surprised? I was. These old mountain bike rim designs would be shot down in a heartbeat on a forum dedicated to gravel wheels. For further context, keep in mind that any good suspended trail 29'er back then was running Stans Flow rims. "Wide" mountain bike rims were maybe 30-35mm in overall dimensions back then, which in aluminum would have yielded an inner width of about 26mm-30mm maximum. 

Also keep in mind that things in the MTB world haven't changed all that much. Look up any decent XC hard tail and check the rim spec. 23mm or so internal rim widths are common, and for a full on trail bike? You are looking at around 30mm internal rim widths. Okay? What about current trends in gravel wheels?

This is interesting to note. Four years ago, I did a wheel build as a project for RidingGravel.com called "Project Wide Gravel Wheels", and for those wheels I used, what I thought of as then being, a ridiculously wide inner rim width of 25mm. Now given all of the above information, you might see why I was thinking that way. In 2016, a twenty-five millimeter inner rim width for gravel was unheard of. 

Project Wide Gravel Wheels used a 25mm inner rim width.

Since then, inner rim widths for 'gravel' category bikes has been creeping upward. 24mm is probably average now with some (FLO Cycling G700, which I recently tested) being 25mm and now we're seeing 26mm inner rim width being pushed as a 'gravel' wheel idea. Granted, materials technology advancements have allowed this to occur without the negatives of weight being an issue, but things are beginning to get out of hand, in my opinion. 

First off, when do we start calling these wheels mountain bike wheels? I'd say we're pretty much at that point. The Boyd wheels linked here are even marketed as 29" XC rated wheels. And then you've got to wonder how tires are being affected at some point. Width ratios are getting a bit out of whack when you look at the differentials between tire overall width vs. inner rim width. Consider that the Bontrager Kovee Comp rims, with an inner width of almost 23mm, has a 2.4" maximum tire width rating. Think about that for a minute in comparison to average widths of tires for gravel uses. 

But let's say the Kovee Comp is on the anemic side for XC use. Okay, maybe what? Go to 28mm inner rim width? 30mm? That's still only 3-5mm wider than where we are with current average gravel wheels which are using tires much smaller than an XC MTB will be using. 

Look, I'm not against experimentation and I happen to think about 24mm inner rim width is about 'right' for a gravel tire in the 38mm-45mm width range. I think 22mm is okay for a racing wheel, for sure, where lighter weight and all is paramount. But when we are talking 26mm inner rim widths? Hmm..... Do we really need that, and I have serious doubts that our tires are going to work correctly over that wide a rim if we are talking the sweet spot for gravel travel, which in my mind is still 42-45mm wide. But if you are in the 38mm-40mm tire crowd, that 26mm inner rim width or wider? Uh.....no. I think you've gone past the point of 'good' and your returns are diminished. But maybe that's just me......

Friday News And Views

SRAM Force AXS crankset.

A Hit And A Miss:

SRAM's wireless road group has been a pretty big hit with the road going crowd. The new AXS has a lot of folks excited. The recently announced Red version was pretty stylish looking. But people were hanging on for SRAM to trickle down the tech into a more reasonably priced range. Well, their wishes on the pricing have come true. Too bad it looks like a department store group.

I mean, look at this. Could it look anymore bland and....plasticky? It's as if they were out to "out-Tourney" Shimano in the "Mart Bike" category. If this had a bolt on chain guard it would be a dead ringer for an entry level crank set.

But, it is "wireless", and there are no cables, and it shifts whenever, blah, blah, blah. I get it. But why does good design and high tech have to be mutually exclusive? It's as if they tried to make it ugly. Wait....... I hadn't thought of that. Okay, never mind.

But beyond its looks, there are really some limited gearing options if you want to have sub-1 to 1 gears, and that battery on the front derailleur is said to only clear a 40mm tire. Plus, it's hanging out there right where all the dirt, muck, and mire is going to bathe it, collect on it, and gum up the works. That said, I actually got a close up look at the Red AXS group (the GOOD looking one), on a bike with a 40mm tire. (Thanks SRAM Rep Dan!) The issues with clearances are there with big tires, so that still concerns me. However, SRAM has modified the mount for the battery somewhat which should make it so that heavy debris from off the rear tire will not dislodge the battery from its mount. I was also told that this system is imminently weather-proof. Well......we'll see. I still say the Force AXS group needs a re-do, and while you are at it, please put away your ugly stick. Thank you.

23mm inner rim width was once mtb territory. Now it is barely a gravel rim!

The Inner Width Story:

Several years ago mountain bikers saw a move from the old, narrow rim widths and road bikes followed to a degree in that move also. When "gravel" rims were hitting the shelves a few years ago, they started out being marketed as something wider, suitable for the bigger tires gravel riders wanted to use. Typically these were in the 21mm-23mm range. Funny......that was the old mtb inner widths. Anyway, it didn't take long for gravel riders to start seeing bigger tires, and wider inner rim widths. I built a set of wheels a few years ago with WTB i25 KOM rims, and I thought I was pushing the envelope. Now, that is considered about par for the course.

So, I have to shake my head when one of these smaller wheel companies hits me up about checking out their wheels for RidingGravel.com and the inner rim width is under 20mm. Really? That's road racing width from the 00's. That is basically antique, and the marketing is saying it is a "wider rim" suitable for gravel?

I don't know, but information is easy to find these days and I've seen a lot of it for rims. I'm not anybody special in regard to this knowledge- it's there for anyone to see, so I have to chalk that up to just plain not doing the research. Based on that marketing faux pas alone you have to question the company and the product. The story has changed and companies need to keep up on them, or get left behind.

Renegade Gents run amok.

Renegade Gent's Race 9.0:

Well, it is that time of the year again. The Renegade Gent's Race is Saturday. This has been something that is near and dear to my heart, as many long time readers here know. I really look forward to this event and I plan on having a lot of fun.

This will be my 9th time. Yep! I'll have been to every single running of this event. I guess I'll count my lucky stars too, because I easily could have missed any one of them. 9 times to an event without a break is an unusual thing, and I am happy to have seen this through. The event sure has changed, and now the scrum of folks it draws is a mighty throng. The Renegade Gent's Race is one of those things you can enjoy in many ways. I think that is what makes it work for so many folks. That and it kind of kicks off the "normal" season of gravel riding here.

The weather should be darn near perfect too. 70's? Are you kidding me? I better bring some Sun tan lotion. I'm likely to get burnt! This might be the best weather since the first Gent's Race back in 2011. I think there will be some wind out of the South, but whatever. This should be a great day on the bike.

Stay tuned for a race report Monday. Till then, have an awesome weekend! 

Friday News And Views

SRAM Force AXS crankset.

A Hit And A Miss:

SRAM's wireless road group has been a pretty big hit with the road going crowd. The new AXS has a lot of folks excited. The recently announced Red version was pretty stylish looking. But people were hanging on for SRAM to trickle down the tech into a more reasonably priced range. Well, their wishes on the pricing have come true. Too bad it looks like a department store group.

I mean, look at this. Could it look anymore bland and....plasticky? It's as if they were out to "out-Tourney" Shimano in the "Mart Bike" category. If this had a bolt on chain guard it would be a dead ringer for an entry level crank set.

But, it is "wireless", and there are no cables, and it shifts whenever, blah, blah, blah. I get it. But why does good design and high tech have to be mutually exclusive? It's as if they tried to make it ugly. Wait....... I hadn't thought of that. Okay, never mind.

But beyond its looks, there are really some limited gearing options if you want to have sub-1 to 1 gears, and that battery on the front derailleur is said to only clear a 40mm tire. Plus, it's hanging out there right where all the dirt, muck, and mire is going to bathe it, collect on it, and gum up the works. That said, I actually got a close up look at the Red AXS group (the GOOD looking one), on a bike with a 40mm tire. (Thanks SRAM Rep Dan!) The issues with clearances are there with big tires, so that still concerns me. However, SRAM has modified the mount for the battery somewhat which should make it so that heavy debris from off the rear tire will not dislodge the battery from its mount. I was also told that this system is imminently weather-proof. Well......we'll see. I still say the Force AXS group needs a re-do, and while you are at it, please put away your ugly stick. Thank you.

23mm inner rim width was once mtb territory. Now it is barely a gravel rim!

The Inner Width Story:

Several years ago mountain bikers saw a move from the old, narrow rim widths and road bikes followed to a degree in that move also. When "gravel" rims were hitting the shelves a few years ago, they started out being marketed as something wider, suitable for the bigger tires gravel riders wanted to use. Typically these were in the 21mm-23mm range. Funny......that was the old mtb inner widths. Anyway, it didn't take long for gravel riders to start seeing bigger tires, and wider inner rim widths. I built a set of wheels a few years ago with WTB i25 KOM rims, and I thought I was pushing the envelope. Now, that is considered about par for the course.

So, I have to shake my head when one of these smaller wheel companies hits me up about checking out their wheels for RidingGravel.com and the inner rim width is under 20mm. Really? That's road racing width from the 00's. That is basically antique, and the marketing is saying it is a "wider rim" suitable for gravel?

I don't know, but information is easy to find these days and I've seen a lot of it for rims. I'm not anybody special in regard to this knowledge- it's there for anyone to see, so I have to chalk that up to just plain not doing the research. Based on that marketing faux pas alone you have to question the company and the product. The story has changed and companies need to keep up on them, or get left behind.

Renegade Gents run amok.

Renegade Gent's Race 9.0:

Well, it is that time of the year again. The Renegade Gent's Race is Saturday. This has been something that is near and dear to my heart, as many long time readers here know. I really look forward to this event and I plan on having a lot of fun.

This will be my 9th time. Yep! I'll have been to every single running of this event. I guess I'll count my lucky stars too, because I easily could have missed any one of them. 9 times to an event without a break is an unusual thing, and I am happy to have seen this through. The event sure has changed, and now the scrum of folks it draws is a mighty throng. The Renegade Gent's Race is one of those things you can enjoy in many ways. I think that is what makes it work for so many folks. That and it kind of kicks off the "normal" season of gravel riding here.

The weather should be darn near perfect too. 70's? Are you kidding me? I better bring some Sun tan lotion. I'm likely to get burnt! This might be the best weather since the first Gent's Race back in 2011. I think there will be some wind out of the South, but whatever. This should be a great day on the bike.

Stay tuned for a race report Monday. Till then, have an awesome weekend! 

Rim Width And Gravel Tires

Internal rim width- How wide is too wide?

It is no secret that rims have been getting wider. It also is no secret that we have pretty much quit focusing on external rim width and now pretty much speak in terms of internal rim widths. Why? Also, you may wonder why any of this matters. Wide rims are......well, wider, and that's that, right?

Well, not so much. Actually, wider rims do some beneficial things for riders of any bicycle, but I am going to keep the focus on gravel travel here. That said, much of what I am writing about today can be transferred to other types of bicycles and other genres of riding.

First, let's get into why rims were, for the most part, narrow. One must remember it wasn't always the case that rims were narrow. Way back they were wider because tires were bigger and more material was necessary to keep rims strong. Old tolerances were not as tight either, so width helped support the tires that didn't necessarily fit the greatest.

Note the difference in outer rim width versus inner rim width. Image courtesy of Velocity USA.

Then tolerances got tighter and materials technology advanced enough that things swung the other way. To cut weight, both the rim and the tires went on a diet. Rim widths got ever narrower until the 80's/90's when internal rim widths on some XC MTB rims was sub 20mm! That's for 2" plus wide tires!

Road rim widths, internally, were 17mm-19mm wide and stayed that way for a few decades. But then something happened which, in my opinion, opened the door wide for experimentation on rim width. During the late 90's, early "oughties", the down hill mtb scene started to push rim widths out to better support tires in corners and hard landings. Other MTB disciplines started looking at this and with a helping hand from materials technologies, once again, rims started getting wider for mountain bikes.

29"ers were something that also started companies walking down that wider rim lane. I recall when Salsa Cycles announced their Semi (30mm outer) and Gordo (35mm outer) rims, Velocity USA announced the Blunt  (28mm outer) and then the Blunt 35, (Obvious, innit?), and we all started thinking harder about wider rims. Keep in mind that about 12 years ago internal rim widths for most 29"ers was still around 20mm, give or take a millimeter. These new rims were mind blowingly wide.

Tubeless stuff also made wider rims more popular. The whole idea with tubeless was that one could lower air pressures, get more traction, and have similar or lower rolling resistance as with tubes. But, without a wide, stiff foundation for the tire to work from without a tube in it, the problems of burping tires and rolling tires off rims was commonplace. This moved companies to start taking a look at wider rims. Weights went up, for sure, but with new technologies, that weight wasn't as great as it would have been in the decades previous. The ubiquitous usage of disc brakes and the problem solving that came with wider rims brought a new focus on what mattered- inner rim width. 

With tubeless tires, inner rim width is important to note.

 With no regard for cantilever brake's limitations on rim widths, designers of mountain bikes were free to widen the inner rim widths to better support tubeless tires. No longer were riders considering rims only for the lightest weight, like back in the 90's. Now try and find a MTB rim with an inner width below 20mm. Not gonna happen!

In fact, try and find a current, tubeless compatible gravel/all road wheel with an inner rim width of less than 20mm. Yep! Pretty much a unicorn at this point nowadays. So, with the bonus of a good foundation for tires to work off of, and weight penalties being minimized, is there a point where tires and rims don't work as well when inner rim widths get really wide? In fact- yes. There is a point where rims can be too wide.

Now, as I've stated, I'm not going to go all in on mountain bike, fat bike, or road rim widths and tire matching to those. That's a HUGE subject which could fill a book. I'll just keep the focus on my experiences with gravel tires and rims meant for that pursuit.

I've used very narrow, 20-ish millimeter wide rims all the way up to 25mm internal rim width rims with tires ranging from 32mm through 50mm. Basically the gamut of tire widths used for gravel travel. In my opinion, some matching of tire to inner rim widths makes sense here. So, to put a 32mm CX tire on a rim with a 25mm inner width isn't a great idea. the tire casing flattens out, the overall height/volume of the tire suffers, and some elements of "self-steer" will rear their ugly heads on set ups like that. Self-steer is where your wheel kind of has a mind of its own and goes not where you want to point it. I know......that's a pretty technical explanation. Sorry! I would take the time to break that down, but this post is getting long as it is!

Of course, you can put a 50mm tire on a very skinny rim, and I've done that too. You end up having to use a higher pressure to mitigate tire squirm and possibility for roll-offs, and your ride quality will suck. Again- technical speak. But I think you get the picture here. Extreme match-ups are to be avoided. Try to use a wider tire with a wider internal rim width and vice-versa.

A good, all around internal rim width for almost any gravel tire, in my opinion, is 24-25mm. It would seem that most manufacturers agree with that. A few years ago I built up a set of wheels I dubbed the "Project Wide Gravel Wheels". I used a WTB KOM i25 rim set. Yes......that's 25mm inner rim width. I figured I was pushing the limits of "good" and maybe went over the line. Let's keep in mind that even three years ago 22-23mm was considered "really wide" for gravel. But I found that i25 rims were actually ideal for the 40mm-45mm tires I was using. That size even works well for up to 50mm tires, as I have found by using a set of 24mm inner width rims with 650B X 47mm tires.

So, would something even wider work? Maybe for the wider gravel tires, yes, it might. I am thinking about pushing a wheel set out and using internal 30mm width rims, like the Blunt SS shown above. It might prove to be interesting to try that out. You may say, "Well, that's a mountain bike rim!", and it is, technically. But take a look at what mountain bikers are using now and much of what you will find makes an internal 30mm wide rim look "skinny".

There is more to this rim width subject, but this post is already at "novel" length, and either your coffee is gone already, or it's cold. Sorry about that...... I'll update this subject down the road if there seems to be enough interest. I could even upgrade my "Project Wide Gravel Wheels" to "Project Even Wider Gravel Wheels" and maybe that is what I should be doing here. Real world test that idea!

Rim Width And Gravel Tires

Internal rim width- How wide is too wide?

It is no secret that rims have been getting wider. It also is no secret that we have pretty much quit focusing on external rim width and now pretty much speak in terms of internal rim widths. Why? Also, you may wonder why any of this matters. Wide rims are......well, wider, and that's that, right?

Well, not so much. Actually, wider rims do some beneficial things for riders of any bicycle, but I am going to keep the focus on gravel travel here. That said, much of what I am writing about today can be transferred to other types of bicycles and other genres of riding.

First, let's get into why rims were, for the most part, narrow. One must remember it wasn't always the case that rims were narrow. Way back they were wider because tires were bigger and more material was necessary to keep rims strong. Old tolerances were not as tight either, so width helped support the tires that didn't necessarily fit the greatest.

Note the difference in outer rim width versus inner rim width. Image courtesy of Velocity USA.

Then tolerances got tighter and materials technology advanced enough that things swung the other way. To cut weight, both the rim and the tires went on a diet. Rim widths got ever narrower until the 80's/90's when internal rim widths on some XC MTB rims was sub 20mm! That's for 2" plus wide tires!

Road rim widths, internally, were 17mm-19mm wide and stayed that way for a few decades. But then something happened which, in my opinion, opened the door wide for experimentation on rim width. During the late 90's, early "oughties", the down hill mtb scene started to push rim widths out to better support tires in corners and hard landings. Other MTB disciplines started looking at this and with a helping hand from materials technologies, once again, rims started getting wider for mountain bikes.

29"ers were something that also started companies walking down that wider rim lane. I recall when Salsa Cycles announced their Semi (30mm outer) and Gordo (35mm outer) rims, Velocity USA announced the Blunt  (28mm outer) and then the Blunt 35, (Obvious, innit?), and we all started thinking harder about wider rims. Keep in mind that about 12 years ago internal rim widths for most 29"ers was still around 20mm, give or take a millimeter. These new rims were mind blowingly wide.

Tubeless stuff also made wider rims more popular. The whole idea with tubeless was that one could lower air pressures, get more traction, and have similar or lower rolling resistance as with tubes. But, without a wide, stiff foundation for the tire to work from without a tube in it, the problems of burping tires and rolling tires off rims was commonplace. This moved companies to start taking a look at wider rims. Weights went up, for sure, but with new technologies, that weight wasn't as great as it would have been in the decades previous. The ubiquitous usage of disc brakes and the problem solving that came with wider rims brought a new focus on what mattered- inner rim width. 

With tubeless tires, inner rim width is important to note.

 With no regard for cantilever brake's limitations on rim widths, designers of mountain bikes were free to widen the inner rim widths to better support tubeless tires. No longer were riders considering rims only for the lightest weight, like back in the 90's. Now try and find a MTB rim with an inner width below 20mm. Not gonna happen!

In fact, try and find a current, tubeless compatible gravel/all road wheel with an inner rim width of less than 20mm. Yep! Pretty much a unicorn at this point nowadays. So, with the bonus of a good foundation for tires to work off of, and weight penalties being minimized, is there a point where tires and rims don't work as well when inner rim widths get really wide? In fact- yes. There is a point where rims can be too wide.

Now, as I've stated, I'm not going to go all in on mountain bike, fat bike, or road rim widths and tire matching to those. That's a HUGE subject which could fill a book. I'll just keep the focus on my experiences with gravel tires and rims meant for that pursuit.

I've used very narrow, 20-ish millimeter wide rims all the way up to 25mm internal rim width rims with tires ranging from 32mm through 50mm. Basically the gamut of tire widths used for gravel travel. In my opinion, some matching of tire to inner rim widths makes sense here. So, to put a 32mm CX tire on a rim with a 25mm inner width isn't a great idea. the tire casing flattens out, the overall height/volume of the tire suffers, and some elements of "self-steer" will rear their ugly heads on set ups like that. Self-steer is where your wheel kind of has a mind of its own and goes not where you want to point it. I know......that's a pretty technical explanation. Sorry! I would take the time to break that down, but this post is getting long as it is!

Of course, you can put a 50mm tire on a very skinny rim, and I've done that too. You end up having to use a higher pressure to mitigate tire squirm and possibility for roll-offs, and your ride quality will suck. Again- technical speak. But I think you get the picture here. Extreme match-ups are to be avoided. Try to use a wider tire with a wider internal rim width and vice-versa.

A good, all around internal rim width for almost any gravel tire, in my opinion, is 24-25mm. It would seem that most manufacturers agree with that. A few years ago I built up a set of wheels I dubbed the "Project Wide Gravel Wheels". I used a WTB KOM i25 rim set. Yes......that's 25mm inner rim width. I figured I was pushing the limits of "good" and maybe went over the line. Let's keep in mind that even three years ago 22-23mm was considered "really wide" for gravel. But I found that i25 rims were actually ideal for the 40mm-45mm tires I was using. That size even works well for up to 50mm tires, as I have found by using a set of 24mm inner width rims with 650B X 47mm tires.

So, would something even wider work? Maybe for the wider gravel tires, yes, it might. I am thinking about pushing a wheel set out and using internal 30mm width rims, like the Blunt SS shown above. It might prove to be interesting to try that out. You may say, "Well, that's a mountain bike rim!", and it is, technically. But take a look at what mountain bikers are using now and much of what you will find makes an internal 30mm wide rim look "skinny".

There is more to this rim width subject, but this post is already at "novel" length, and either your coffee is gone already, or it's cold. Sorry about that...... I'll update this subject down the road if there seems to be enough interest. I could even upgrade my "Project Wide Gravel Wheels" to "Project Even Wider Gravel Wheels" and maybe that is what I should be doing here. Real world test that idea!

Project Wide Gravel Wheels: Update

Up at East Janesville Church the other day.

The idea was to run wider rims than maybe what any cyclo crosser or roadies would ever consider for a gravel road bike and see what, if any performance advantages there are when running those wider rims. Once again, I tried the WTB KOM i25 rims which, as the name implies, have a 25mm inner rim width. Keep in mind that many rim companies are saying "wide" for a road rim is 20mm, maybe 21mm, of inner rim width. Yes, the KOM i25 is "really" a 29"er rim, but hey! That's a minor detail, and so I used them anyway.

One other thing I did here was that I did not weigh the wheels. I did this because I think it might affect the way I look at this project, if I knew, and I really think a good set of wheels with a reasonable weight is going to feel great no matter. So, I don't have a weight on these wheels, and weight wasn't the biggest concern here, quite honestly. I was mostly wanting to see how, or even if, tire performance could be enhanced.

That said, here are a few things I've noticed about these wheels, and a comment about what they do to tires so far.

The White Industries XMR hubs are amazing. Normally, you probably do not think much about your hubs, and that would be considered a great thing in a hub. These hubs I actually do think about once in a while because I could see how much better they spin, and that translated in to a faster coast with longer times off the power without losing ground to other riders or slowing down too much. The build is solid. I have had no issues with the wheels at all, but I will say that the KOM rims are a pretty lightweight extrusion. I wouldn't place any bets on how long they will last, but so far, so good. And I have pounded these wheels doing curb hops, bunny hops, and generally banging them around.

So, anyway, the tires...... Well, I've only mounted one set so far, so I have to reserve judgement on the tire part. That said, I feel they have made a big tire less crowned, wider, and more stable in the loose stuff as a result. The tubeless factor makes for lowered pressures and I have found that makes these wheel great over rough terrain and deeper grounds, like sand, and really deep gravel.

So far so good, like I say. More soon.......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels: Update

Up at East Janesville Church the other day.

The idea was to run wider rims than maybe what any cyclo crosser or roadies would ever consider for a gravel road bike and see what, if any performance advantages there are when running those wider rims. Once again, I tried the WTB KOM i25 rims which, as the name implies, have a 25mm inner rim width. Keep in mind that many rim companies are saying "wide" for a road rim is 20mm, maybe 21mm, of inner rim width. Yes, the KOM i25 is "really" a 29"er rim, but hey! That's a minor detail, and so I used them anyway.

One other thing I did here was that I did not weigh the wheels. I did this because I think it might affect the way I look at this project, if I knew, and I really think a good set of wheels with a reasonable weight is going to feel great no matter. So, I don't have a weight on these wheels, and weight wasn't the biggest concern here, quite honestly. I was mostly wanting to see how, or even if, tire performance could be enhanced.

That said, here are a few things I've noticed about these wheels, and a comment about what they do to tires so far.

The White Industries XMR hubs are amazing. Normally, you probably do not think much about your hubs, and that would be considered a great thing in a hub. These hubs I actually do think about once in a while because I could see how much better they spin, and that translated in to a faster coast with longer times off the power without losing ground to other riders or slowing down too much. The build is solid. I have had no issues with the wheels at all, but I will say that the KOM rims are a pretty lightweight extrusion. I wouldn't place any bets on how long they will last, but so far, so good. And I have pounded these wheels doing curb hops, bunny hops, and generally banging them around.

So, anyway, the tires...... Well, I've only mounted one set so far, so I have to reserve judgement on the tire part. That said, I feel they have made a big tire less crowned, wider, and more stable in the loose stuff as a result. The tubeless factor makes for lowered pressures and I have found that makes these wheel great over rough terrain and deeper grounds, like sand, and really deep gravel.

So far so good, like I say. More soon.......

Switcheroo: Update

Glad to have these on the Tamland yesterday.

The new wheels with the huge Panaracer SK 40mm tires went to the Renegade Gents Race yesterday, (full recap tomorrow), but I wanted to get out an impression of the set up while I had time here.

The Gent's Race has it's courses change up from time to time, but there is one consistent thing about all of them- The gravel in that area has a higher sand content than many places in Iowa. It is very similar to Nebraska, "Gravel World's" type stuff. Loose, shifty, and deep at times. While there had been a lot of rain down that way recently, and some of the roads were pretty firm, there was still a fair amount of that sandy, loose stuff.

The other factor was the high winds. We were obligated to head straight into the teeth of a 25-30mph wind with higher gusts for a stretch over 10 miles in one crack. In order to keep our team of five together we had to ride in echelon, which required us to be in pretty close and tight to one another to make it effective. That meant that you had to run over whatever was coming your way. No picking your line or looking for the smoothest parts of the road to ride on.

So, having to run over all the deeper, loose stuff on the edges of the road, since I was helping to pull, meant that if I had a tire/rim combo that knifed in, I was going to have a really hard time staying up there and keeping my line. I'm glad to say that this wheel and tire combo passed muster in this scenario. I couldn't have been happier.

More soon......

Switcheroo: Update

Glad to have these on the Tamland yesterday.

The new wheels with the huge Panaracer SK 40mm tires went to the Renegade Gents Race yesterday, (full recap tomorrow), but I wanted to get out an impression of the set up while I had time here.

The Gent's Race has it's courses change up from time to time, but there is one consistent thing about all of them- The gravel in that area has a higher sand content than many places in Iowa. It is very similar to Nebraska, "Gravel World's" type stuff. Loose, shifty, and deep at times. While there had been a lot of rain down that way recently, and some of the roads were pretty firm, there was still a fair amount of that sandy, loose stuff.

The other factor was the high winds. We were obligated to head straight into the teeth of a 25-30mph wind with higher gusts for a stretch over 10 miles in one crack. In order to keep our team of five together we had to ride in echelon, which required us to be in pretty close and tight to one another to make it effective. That meant that you had to run over whatever was coming your way. No picking your line or looking for the smoothest parts of the road to ride on.

So, having to run over all the deeper, loose stuff on the edges of the road, since I was helping to pull, meant that if I had a tire/rim combo that knifed in, I was going to have a really hard time staying up there and keeping my line. I'm glad to say that this wheel and tire combo passed muster in this scenario. I couldn't have been happier.

More soon......

Project Wide Gravel Wheels

Well.......look at that, would ya?

Okay.......White Industries came through. I have the hubs in hand and now, as I am wont to do, I have instigated another "project". This one will be a wheel build to test my theory on wide rims for gravel.

Before I get into my hypothesis, let's take a look at these gorgeous black anodized goodies here, shall we? Of course, they are from White Industries and are their new disc hubs dubbed "XMR". What does that stand for? Who knows! I would say, "good looking", sleek", and light weight, but none of those terms start with "X" "M" or "R". White Industries says the hubs have a 6-4 titanium free hub body, a six bolt disc rotor interface, available swappable end caps for through axle compatibility, or as in my case, the standard traditional quick release caps which are included, and an 11 speed compatibility with backwards compatibility to 10 speed and 9 speed cassettes via an included spacer. Pretty swank looks, if I say so myself, with laser etched graphics, and an availability in a few different anodized hues to boot. I chose black so I can swap these wheels, when they are built, between multiple bikes if I so choose and they will look great in all of them. I must say that I was sorely tempted by the option of getting White Industries XMR hubs in luscious purple ano though!

These hubs came highly recommended to me, but of course, there are more things to a wheel than hubs. I also chose WTB's KOM i25 rims for this build, and here's where it gets interesting, as far as my theory goes here. First, you need to know that WTB KOM i25 rims are 25mm inside width, so they are pretty wide rims! Keep in mind that most road-ish, cyclo-cross rims run in the 17mm-19mm inner rim width territory. Yeah......these are wide rims!! Well, for 35-40mm tires, they are wide rims. And see......that's the thing, everybody is going wide and wider off road, so why not for gravel? I mean, a 30mm wide rim is considered XC-ish these days and 35-40mm inner rim widths are commonplace on trail bikes. Every road rim that is introduced gets wider as well. So, it only follows that gravel riders might be benefiting from the same ideas, right? Well, we will see......

KOM rims come in several widths and diameters, but I chose the biggest and widest!

I figure we can look at gravel road tires as "plus sized road tires", so wider rims make sense to me in that vein. My hope is that the wider KOM i25 will do for the 38mm-40mm tires I intend to use on them what the wider mtb rims and 27.5+ tires did for my "Fat Fargo". Those corpulent wheels transformed the Fat Fargo into a rough terrain eating machine. Maybe wider rims will help stabilize gravel tires and help them roll over loose, deep gravel at lowered pressures better than they do on more traditional width cyclo-cross or road rims, the likes of which I have been using. Maybe that will translate into a more comfortable, less fatiguing ride quality which will help me out on longer rides. That's the hope and what I intend on finding out.

So, stay tuned for a detailed wheel build post, then I'll pop on some bigger gravel going rubber and then these will be featured first on my Twin Six Standard Rando, but I fully expect to also use them on my Raleigh Tamland Two and my Gen I Fargo.

Project Wide Gravel Wheels

Well.......look at that, would ya?

Okay.......White Industries came through. I have the hubs in hand and now, as I am wont to do, I have instigated another "project". This one will be a wheel build to test my theory on wide rims for gravel.

Before I get into my hypothesis, let's take a look at these gorgeous black anodized goodies here, shall we? Of course, they are from White Industries and are their new disc hubs dubbed "XMR". What does that stand for? Who knows! I would say, "good looking", sleek", and light weight, but none of those terms start with "X" "M" or "R". White Industries says the hubs have a 6-4 titanium free hub body, a six bolt disc rotor interface, available swappable end caps for through axle compatibility, or as in my case, the standard traditional quick release caps which are included, and an 11 speed compatibility with backwards compatibility to 10 speed and 9 speed cassettes via an included spacer. Pretty swank looks, if I say so myself, with laser etched graphics, and an availability in a few different anodized hues to boot. I chose black so I can swap these wheels, when they are built, between multiple bikes if I so choose and they will look great in all of them. I must say that I was sorely tempted by the option of getting White Industries XMR hubs in luscious purple ano though!

These hubs came highly recommended to me, but of course, there are more things to a wheel than hubs. I also chose WTB's KOM i25 rims for this build, and here's where it gets interesting, as far as my theory goes here. First, you need to know that WTB KOM i25 rims are 25mm inside width, so they are pretty wide rims! Keep in mind that most road-ish, cyclo-cross rims run in the 17mm-19mm inner rim width territory. Yeah......these are wide rims!! Well, for 35-40mm tires, they are wide rims. And see......that's the thing, everybody is going wide and wider off road, so why not for gravel? I mean, a 30mm wide rim is considered XC-ish these days and 35-40mm inner rim widths are commonplace on trail bikes. Every road rim that is introduced gets wider as well. So, it only follows that gravel riders might be benefiting from the same ideas, right? Well, we will see......

KOM rims come in several widths and diameters, but I chose the biggest and widest!

I figure we can look at gravel road tires as "plus sized road tires", so wider rims make sense to me in that vein. My hope is that the wider KOM i25 will do for the 38mm-40mm tires I intend to use on them what the wider mtb rims and 27.5+ tires did for my "Fat Fargo". Those corpulent wheels transformed the Fat Fargo into a rough terrain eating machine. Maybe wider rims will help stabilize gravel tires and help them roll over loose, deep gravel at lowered pressures better than they do on more traditional width cyclo-cross or road rims, the likes of which I have been using. Maybe that will translate into a more comfortable, less fatiguing ride quality which will help me out on longer rides. That's the hope and what I intend on finding out.

So, stay tuned for a detailed wheel build post, then I'll pop on some bigger gravel going rubber and then these will be featured first on my Twin Six Standard Rando, but I fully expect to also use them on my Raleigh Tamland Two and my Gen I Fargo.